Vitakka & Vicāra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

jankala wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:39 pm
Honestly I don't see a problem with this sutta at all given our understanding of oral transmission and what the texts, on their own terms, define as sati, jhāna, vitakka/vicara, etc.
I take it then you accept the commentarial explanation?

“And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path." - MN 117
It makes perfect sense that people would think things are 'problems,' 'don't make sense,' or fit their ideas exactly because they read the suttas with an idea of what the text should say and then when it doesn't match that, it's obviously an error in the sutta or a mix-up and confusion that we should just set aside and keep believing as we do.

I'm not saying you do or are doing this, but just a general pattern that I tend to see: people read suttas and the their eyes and views reflect on the text, rather than the text reflecting onto their views. It's almost like religious texts turn into a mirror where whoever reads it ends up looking at their own mental reflection.
I agree. We shouldn't discard things because we don't agree with them. We should draw conclusions based on what is available. There is no contradiction between that and highlighting potential errors in the texts. As robust as the oral tradition was, it wasn't perfect. MN 125, as it reads, is contradictory in light of the other texts in which it is contextualised.
Jhānas and samādhi are the culmination of the right view, right sankappa, right effort, and right mindfulness, with speech action and livelihood already purified beforehand. Sati leads to samādhi, and samādhi is simply an extremely clarified and hindrance-free establishment of mindfulness.
You practice satipatthana and tie down the hindrances and household intentions/thoughts/inclinations, and eventually satipatthana bleeds those away, and you can enter first jhāna—all unwholesome and coarse forms of thinking, especially sensual thinking and that related to the hindrances is completely stilled.
I wouldn't say you tie down the hindrances, but generally I agree with this.
Then we are left with wholesome intentions and thoughts. The mind still may be inclining itself to themes related to the satipatthana, let's say the body. It may still be reflecting on the body, on it's seclusion from hindrances, examining the extent of the body and things. Even that then can be stilled and one enters the second jhāna just as normal. There's no problem or contradiction here—sometimes suttas use formulas in places that are more than obviously the repetition of a formula for recitation, and that by no means dismisses the core content. The logical leap is simply nonsensical—it only dismisses the regular formulaic insertion in an expected place.
This doesn't contradict the vipassana way of meditation, as far as I can see.
In fact, this was even mention in the suttas. People are explicitly warned not to argue about the Dhamma in such a way:
"You said X first, it should be Y. You said Y first, it should be X." Blah blah. Irrelevant to the actual content of the suttas.
I think you are misunderstanding this sutta.
Then, we're left with the question you brought up: are V&V in the jhānic context identical to everyday discursive thinking with long verbal thoughts and things?
Well, let me remind us that vitakka and vicara are defined as the vacīsankhara. They are inherently verbal. We also see all over the suttas and probably even more so in the Chinese Āgamas talk of how ānāpānasati calms distracting vitakka/vicara, and there's even a parallel where the 16 steps include calming the vacīsankhara.
It doesn't follow that because V&V are the vacīsankhara that they are inherently verbal. Furthermore, if that could be established, how then do they work for people who do not think in words?
On the other hand though, we have to remember that the whole point and characteristic of a jhāna is that it is seclusion from the sensual domain. It is seclusion from all unwholesome mind states and thoughts. Unity of mind, purity of mindfulness. So in that sense, of course it isn't just everyday discursive thinking. Most daily discursive thinking is almost all related to planning for things in the sensual domain, doing X, getting Y, consuming Z, distracting oneself, getting lost in thought, daydreams, conversations, reasoning and study, etc. None of that is present in the jhāna, so to then come to the conclusion that "welp V&V is either everyday discursive thinking or its something else entirely" are both mistaken.
Seclusion is both bodily and mental. The seclusion from the kāmā is seclusion from the external sensual pleasures. Seclusion from unwholesome states is seclusion from the hindrances, of which one is sensual desire for things. I would agree that it is not normal everyday thinking.
It is vitakka and vicara. Those are the words used. But it isn't everyday discursive planning and sensual distraction or irrelevant thinking. It's a subtle, directed, mindful, relevant form of directing the mind to think and examine the topic of satipatthana practice, the seclusion from sensuality, etc. in a quiet, gentle manner.
Almost sounds like you are saying V&V is directed and sustained thought. In the commentarial tradition vitakka is the initial investigation, whilst vicāra is sustained investigation. In purely samatha exercises it is applied and sustained thought to one object. In vipassana meditation it is applied and sustained investigation into many different objects, analysing them in terms of impermanence etc. I wonder how close you are to orthodoxy here? So far your ideas are quite close to how V&V is taught in Theravāda. Could you expand on why you think they are at odds, if it all?
This approach to understanding also makes sense of both parallels. Inserting the first jhāna in there is all too predictable and easy: "Ope, not the standard formula that shows up thousands of times, must be an error; let's add the first jhāna back" when originally it wasn't there. The fact that it's missing in the Pali is much more indicative to me of something authentic. The 4 jhāna formula is so common and inserted over and over again.
But even if the 1st jhāna were originally there, it still doesn't conflict in any way with the understanding of vitakka and vicara. It simply refers to all the unwholesome thoughts more specifically being stilled, perhaps compensating for the recitation-formula insertion you pointed out where the household thoughts are repeated. Even still, there can be subtle forms of wholesome direction and reflection in the mind that are going on only in relation to the satipatthana.

I think a good simile or similar phenomenon would be the thinking that goes on when the mind is "in the zone." Say one is creating or drawing for instance, completely absorbed in the task and not distracted or even perceiving external sounds and things. This is a form of samādhi, it just isn't sammā samādhi or jhāna necessarily. But there, afterwards, we may ask someone: "we're you thinking verbally?" On the one hand, yes, they were. The mind was making some subtle decisions and reflection while working. But on the other hand, it would almost feel like there wasn't any thinking when reflecting back on it from a more normal state, because everything was so directed, calm, silent, collected, etc. The mind wasn't just yapping away, it was very collected in the specific thoughts and reflections it was partaking in almost without even noticing.
I appreciate the accommodating attitude and attempt at reconciliation. Far more commendable than some other posters here.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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A Special Kind of Happiness
With upadhi viveka, the mind becomes soft and subtle, light and buoyant, dexterous and flexible. A special kind of happiness, nekkhamma sukha, arises, the happiness and comfort that come from being free from sensual objects as well as from the unwholesome kilesas which react to those objects. So, in place of ordinary apparent happiness, this liberating comfort appears. Does it seem strange that in relinquishing the comfort of the senses, one gains a very comfortable state of being liberated from the very senses we have relinquished? This is the true renunciation of sense pleasures.

Seclusion of the mind from unwholesome dhammas actually means seclusion of the mind from all kilesas. There is no opportunity for kilesas to arise because the immediate cause of kilesas, namely sense objects, have been given up. Now the word jhāna, the state of being absorbed, takes on a whole new meaning. As a result of the jhānic factors of vitakka, aim, and vicāra, rubbing, sensual pleasures have been given up and the kilesas put away. Not only does jhāna allow absorption, but it also removes kilesas. It burns them away as if it were fire.

The Relationship of Vitakka and Vicāra
In the development of jhānic states, these two factors of vitakka and vicāra, accurate aim and impingement, are absolutely important. The two of them have a close relationship which is much discussed in the scriptures. Below are two examples.

Imagine that you have a brass cup that is covered with dirt and stains. You take brass polish and put it on a rag. Holding the cup in one hand, you use the other hand to rub the rag against its surface. Working diligently and carefully, soon you will have a shiny cup.

In the same way, a yogi must hold his or her mind in the particular place where the primary object is occurring, the abdomen. He or she keeps applying mindfulness at that place, rubbing it until the stains and pollution of the kilesas disappear. Then he or she will be able to penetrate into the true nature of what is happening at that spot. He or she will comprehend the process of rising and falling. Of course, if other objects become more prominent than the primary object, a yogi must note them applying vitakka and vicāra toward the new phenomena.

Holding the mug with one hand is analogous to vitakka, while the polishing action is analogous to vicāra. Imagine what would happen if this yogi only held on to the mug and did not polish it. It would remain as dirty as before.

If he or she tried to polish it without holding it steady, it would again be impossible to do a good job. This illustrates the interdependency of the two factors.

The second example is that of a compass, the kind used in geometry. As you know, a compass has two arms, a pointed one and another which holds the pencil. You must firmly place your mind on the object of meditation, as if your mind were the pointed end of the compass; and then you must rotate the mind, so to speak, until it can see the object as a while and very clearly. A perfect circle will result. Again, the placing of the pointed end is analogous to vitakka, and the rotation to vicāra.

Direct, Intuitive Knowledge
Sometimes vicāra is translated into English as “investigation” or “sustained thought.” This is very misleading. People in the West have been educated since kindergarten to use their intellects, always to seek the whys and wherefores. Unfortunately, this kind of investigation is inappropriate for meditation. Intellectual learning and knowledge is only one of two kinds. The other kind of knowledge and learning is direct and intuitive. In meditation one examines the ultimate realities, or paramattha dhammas, directly. One must actually experience them, without thinking about them. This is the only way to attain insight and wisdom relating to things as they really are, the natural state of affairs. One may understand a lot intellectually about ultimate reality. One may have read a great deal, but without experiencing reality directly, there can be no insight.

The reason why the samatha jhānas can grant tranquillity, but do not lead directly to wisdom is that they have concepts as their objects, rather than objects which can be directly experienced without thinking. The vipassanā jhānas lead to wisdom, because they consists of direct, sustained contact with the ultimate realities.

Say you have an apple in front of you and you have heard someone say that it is a very juicy, sweet and delicious apple. Perhaps instead you come across this same apple and you think, “Boy, that looks like a really juicy apple. I bet it will be very sweet.” You can think, you can bet, but until you take a bite you will not experience the taste of that fruit. So too with meditation. You may vividly imagine what a certain experience is like, but you have not experienced the real thing until you have actually made the effort to practice in the right way. Then you will have your own insight. There is no arguing with the taste of an apple."
Some thoughts of Sayādaw U Paṇḍita from his book "In This Very Life: The Liberation Teachings of the Buddha"

I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

It seems to me that the debate is about two things

1) Are vitakka-vicāra verbal train of thoughts?

2) Does vitakka-vicāra apply to one object only, or several?

From a Theravādin perspective the answer to the first is no. To the second, it depends if one is doing a purely samatha practice or insight meditation.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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It doesn't follow that because V&V are the vacīsankhara that they are inherently verbal. Furthermore, if that could be established, how then do they work for people who do not think in words?
Vacisankhara is still thinking. Thinking is preverbal before one breaks out in speech or not. Hidden intentions, greed and ill will are examples imo.
Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts

"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme.

"Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Dvedhavitakka Sutta: Two Sorts of Thinking

The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort.

"Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:22 pm You still seem stuck on the idea that everyone thinks in terms of "The elephant is grey" when they think of a grey elephant. You might think your thoughts via words, but not everyone does. Some people think wholly in terms of verbal thoughts. Others it's a mix of both, and for others too it's pure imagery.
We have plenty of examples of the Buddha that use verbalization first person during meditation. For those that have pure imagery, they can still do the same thing without verbalization, and they will use verbalization to describe the same process. But the Suttas speaks like verbalization is the norm and they cannot avoid to distinguish between intentions (that are behind every thought) and the act of thinking that is represented by Vitakka&Vicara (that is something that is more complex, reasoned and it is verbal or it is translated as verbal if needed for those that doesn't verbalize).
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.
Just as the thought would occur to a man walking quickly, 'Why am I walking quickly? Why don't I walk slowly?' So he walks slowly. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I walking slowly? Why don't I stand?' So he stands. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I standing? Why don't I sit down?' So he sits down. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I sitting? Why don't I lie down?' So he lies down.
Those are examples of first-person verbalization in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. If that is done by some without verbalization or with verbalization that is not visible/noted in the conscious part of the brain, that doesn't change that the suttas describe those things as being verbal and do examples as them being verbal because it is taken as the norm. That means that in the nature of first jhana this verbalization (which is not parroting without a sincere intention as Jankala have brilliantly explained) have its place, and it is not true that "thoughts are long gone" in first Jhana as is said, for example, from Sujato. This act of Vitakka&Vicara is well-described in the suttas as a form of verbalization and thought-analysis and not as a "simpler" intention that is something more basic. Vitakka&Vicara is what distinguish an elephant from a human being, the capacity to explore, examine, sift, ponder about a topic. The suttas presents and describe it as internal verbalization, even when you understand "This is Dukkha" and "This is the end of Dukkha".
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:51 pm
Sometimes vicāra is translated into English as “investigation” or “sustained thought.” This is very misleading. People in the West have been educated since kindergarten to use their intellects, always to seek the whys and wherefores. Unfortunately, this kind of investigation is inappropriate for meditation. Intellectual learning and knowledge is only one of two kinds. The other kind of knowledge and learning is direct and intuitive. In meditation one examines the ultimate realities, or paramattha dhammas, directly. One must actually experience them, without thinking about them. This is the only way to attain insight and wisdom relating to things as they really are, the natural state of affairs. One may understand a lot intellectually about ultimate reality. One may have read a great deal, but without experiencing reality directly, there can be no insight.
Some thoughts of Sayādaw U Paṇḍita from his book "In This Very Life: The Liberation Teachings of the Buddha"

I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on it?
I used "In this very life" as a meditation manual for some time. Unfortunately what I think after many years is that what is very misleading is that book.

In the suttas you develop and reinforce wisdom during jhanas (especially the first and the fourth as we know is when you understand the four noble truths completely). This is evident in MA102 that presents forms of reflection and reinforcement due to intellect. Some "whys" are good, for example the why to abandon sensuality or why renunciation is very good from the point of view of one that have understood the Dhamma and thinks in accordance with it. Tradition have developed Vipassana Jhanas to cope with the fact that Samatha Jhanas as teached by U Pandita cannot bring wisdom. That is true. But the Jhanas teached in the Suttas are more than capable to bring wisdom and are said to bring wisdom, they are actually how the Buddha developed his wisdom by looking at the drawbacks of sensuality, of existence etc. If the Buddha had seen dissolution, rupa-kalamas or the things that are said to bring wisdom in Vipassana Jhanas, he would have teached in that way. He didn't.
The third jhāna is called the climax of happiness because there is no more happiness in the next jhāna. As you note phenomena, you will gradually pass beyond the stage of insight into arising and passing away, into the stage of dissolution of phenomena. At this point the beginnings and the middles of objects are no longer clear. Instead the mind perceives continuous dissolution of phenomena, which disappear as soon as they are noted. Often it seems as if there is no body at all, only bare phenomena dissolving away continuously.
This is simply not Buddhism teached in the suttas.

That is why I've abandoned Jhanas teached by U Pandita and similar teachers, not because they are impossible to mantain in laylife (they actually are in a form with diligence and assiduity as teached by Shaila Catherine), but because they cannot bring you wisdom about the impermanence that is visible in every condition which is the one tackled by the Buddha, not some esoteric form or special way to see it (in fact, I always urge to notice that he didn't teach ultimate realities, but noble truths). Sutta jhanas instead cannot be practiced from laypeople that are entrenched in laylife in an active way, but they bring wisdom and renunciation to a point that if you practice them long enough, you have to stop or go forth. But in the meantime they grant you many forms of wisdom.

I don't quarrel about U Pandita, he can be even an Arahant. But with a different method than the one presented in the suttas. I think that the one of the Buddha makes far more sense, is more brilliant, it is evident and it is a form of investigation that is both intellectual and direct.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:01 pm 1) Are vitakka-vicāra verbal train of thoughts?
They are presented as verbal train of thoughts in the suttas and in every other book of self-help and religious help of humanity for obvious reasons and are verbal for those that thinks verbal, but the most important thing is define if they are intellectual reflection, sift, ponderation about a topic (like the drawbacks, or renunciation) or not. This reflection is needed, but costly in terms of energy, that is why in second jhana, when you feel safe and reinforced enough (there's a sutta that suggests not to try second jhana too early because of that, you need the renunciation to be strenghtened and reinforced) you abandon that reflection since is not useful anymore because you're set on renunciation and Dhamma.

This is the crucial thing.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by BrokenBones »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:17 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:01 pm 1) Are vitakka-vicāra verbal train of thoughts?
They are presented as verbal train of thoughts in the suttas and in every other book of self-help and religious help of humanity for obvious reasons and are verbal for those that thinks verbal, but the most important thing is define if they are intellectual reflection, sift, ponderation about a topic (like the drawbacks, or renunciation) or not. This reflection is needed, but costly in terms of energy, that is why in second jhana, when you feel safe and reinforced enough (there's a sutta that suggests not to try second jhana too early because of that, you need the renunciation to be strenghtened and reinforced) you abandon that reflection since is not useful anymore because you're set on renunciation and Dhamma.

This is the crucial thing.
Hi Nirodh27

Can you say something about how this would apply to anapana? Thanks.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:28 am Can you say something about how this would apply to anapana? Thanks.
Hi BrokenBones,

I have no certainties about Anapanasati at the moment and I think it is very difficult to link perfectly all the practices together. I think, but it is a mere speculation, that Anapanasati is a practice that can be done after the reflection has been done extensively, the u-turn is solid and first jhana is already well-attained. I think that because the passages of happiness and joy doesn't explain how to build that joy. Since I don't think it is a mantra or an auto-suggestion, I think that the monk that practice renunciation always have the pleasure of renunciation immediately at hand and can simply "sati" to explore and feel it. The pleasure of renunciation is always immediately at hand for those that renunce. It is reliable, requires nothing, doesn't need to be linked to the impermanent things of sensuality (even if it is impermanent ofc).

The Vitakka in Anapanasati is simple, adapt to one that have already compehended Dhamma. If I'm not wrong, the Buddha still praticed it every day.
Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'
Here you can see how simple the Vitakka is in the first tetrad. That is why seems to me, is an exercise for those that have already comprehended everything and need only a pleasant abiding, to tranquilize the body and reinforcement in the sense of reinforcement of sati, not of wisdom that is already strong.

Sorry to disappoint you :smile:
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:01 am I think that because the passages of happiness and joy doesn't explain how to build that joy
It’s to do with contemplating impermanence and seeing the hindrances have gone, which generates joy and rapture. The mistake is in reading the sutta in a linear way. It’s more they are all different aspects of the same experience. I was going to make a post on this soon. Basically you use V&V to contemplate impermanence, fading away and cessation. Seeing the hindrances are gone, joy arises through the growth of faith in the Buddha (by seeing the truth of impermanence with each breath). This is quite close to how vipassana meditation and it’s Jhanas develop.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:05 am
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:01 am I think that because the passages of happiness and joy doesn't explain how to build that joy
Hi Ceisiwr,
It’s to do with contemplating impermanence and seeing the hindrances have gone, which generates joy and rapture
The mistake is in reading the sutta in a linear way.
I could take you at face-value, but the sutta itself seems very linear. Probably one can start with second tetrad, third or fourth skipping the others and that's fine, but between the tetrad itself there's linearity and the step of impermanence is far from the beginning and only in one tetrad. You should give some evidence with suttas quotes about what you say or I can't simply "trust" you.
Basically you use V&V to contemplate impermanence, fading away and cessation.
Look at the instructions, if the Buddha wanted you to contemplate impermanence and cessation in breath, he would have said to you to do so. He didn't as far as I know. He told you to calm sankharas in 1st tetrad and experience joy (and to experience joy you need to maintain it in mind, that doesn't fit with looking at his impermanence and cessation, you actually build it like it is permanent) in second. If he wanted the single tetrad not to be linear or everything involved into impermanence, he would have said so.

Every master teaches anapanasati as a starting point exercise and makes something different about it. Larry Rosenberg presents a reading of Anapanasati that says that when you arrive at 13th steps you should go back to look at the previous twelve exercise with impermanence in mind. Extremely interesting and useful, but... it is there in the suttas? Not that I can see. And it is one of my favourite book, nothing bad from this kind of practice. But the problem could be at the start, that anapanasati is not a preliminary exercise, but a very advanced one (or even not an exercise at all, but a dwelling, an abiding) for those that can snap-in the pleasure of renunciation very easily, those are the happy monks that are advanced in the practice. If you can give extensive sutta quotes, you theory is good for another topic.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:23 am Look at the instructions, if the Buddha wanted you to contemplate impermanence and cessation in breath, he would have said to you to do so.
Look at the 4th tetrad. Also consider the linear progression of the awakening factors. Joy and rapture come from seeing the hindrances are abandoned, but on a linear reading of MN 118 they come before that. I don’t think anapanasati or the 4 foundations are linear. Rather they are multifaceted aspects of the same experience. Do you breath in with the hindrances or not? Is the mind distracted or not when breathing in? Is there carnal vedana or spiritual vedana, and so on. Nothing in the text suggests that it’s strictly linear at all.

As I said, I’ll make a new thread on this soon.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:31 am
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:23 am Look at the instructions, if the Buddha wanted you to contemplate impermanence and cessation in breath, he would have said to you to do so.
Look at the 4th tetrad.
He would have said it at the start of Anapanasati or with using a refrain like the Satipatthana sutta did. In the first tetrad you have some exercises and an objective that stands on his own (pacify the body). Then there's the four tetrad, but they are distinct exercises as I've said.
I don’t think anapanasati or the 4 foundations are linear.
Two different beasts: the four foundations sutta is probably a later mix of many sources put together, also the impurities of the body are there and the goal there is not impermanence, but revulsion towards the body. A very variegated sutta and there are striking differences between the parallels, so many things were probably added later.

First we should define what anapanasati sutta asks in the anapanasati sutta. And it doesn't ask to see everything in the light of impermanence in every tetrad, but it asks to contemplate impermanence only in the fourth one. There's no reason to extend impermanence to other steps that have different goals unless a very good reason is given.
Do you breath in with the hindrances or not? Is the mind distracted or not when breathing in? Is there carnal vedana or spiritual vedana, and so on
But this is Satipatthana sutta. In Anapanasati the joy is clearly spiritual, another hint that is an advanced practice for pleasant abiding in second tetrad. Even that the joy is about the non-presence of the hindrances is for advanced pratictioners actually.
Nothing in the text suggests that it’s strictly linear at all.
Seems "a little" too much, really. If you give the A. sutta to anyone, he will clearly take the exercise as linear and every exercise contained in himself. He will look at the breath, he will try to pacify the body when the first tetrad is practiced. An argument is needed to extend impermanence in every step and avoid the straightforward and plain reading. The risk of trying to merge Anapanasati with Satipatthana is even more daunting, the risk is to end like this guy:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/ori ... 1_1280.jpg

Maybe it can be done. Maybe it's not needed at all.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:38 am
Seems "a little" too much, really. If you give the A. sutta to anyone, he will clearly take the exercise as linear and every exercise contained in himself. He will look at the breath, he will try to pacify the body when the first tetrad is practiced. An argument is needed to extend impermanence in every step and avoid the straightforward and plain reading. The risk of trying to merge Anapanasati with Satipatthana is even more daunting, the risk is to end like this guy:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/ori ... 1_1280.jpg

Maybe it can be done. Maybe it's not needed at all.
I think a reasonable case can be made that anapanasati fulfils satipatthana, and that both are non-linear. As I say, I’ll post more soon.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by asahi »

Anapanasati does help to establish the mind in composure to get ready for 4 Satipatthana . But without it one could apply other methods as well , not a must thing imo .
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