Vitakka & Vicāra

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AlexBrains92
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:03 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm

Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.
Yes. The problem is in the ambiguity in the word "thinking".
saṅkappa
thought, intention, purpose, plan DN.iii.215; SN.ii.143 sq.; AN.i.281 AN.ii.36; Dhp.74; Snp verse 154, Snp verse 1144; Mnd.616 (= vitakka ñāṇa paññā buddhi); Ds.21; Dhp-a.ii.78. As equivalent of vitakka also at DN.iii.215; AN.iv.385; Ds.7
■ kāma˚ a lustful thought AN.iii.259; AN.v.31. paripuṇṇa˚; having one’s intentions fulfilled MN.i.192; MN.iii.276; DN.iii.42; AN.v.92, AN.v.97 sq.; sara˚; memories & hopes MN.i.453; SN.iv.76 vyāpāda˚, vihiṁsa˚, malicious, cruel purposes, MN.ii.27 sq.; sammā˚; right thoughts or intentions, one of the angas of the 8-fold Path (ariya-magga) Vin.i.10; DN.ii.312; AN.iii.140; Vb-a.117. Sankappa is defined at Dhs-a.124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanā, i.e. application of the mind See on term also Cpd. 238.
https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kappa

It seems to me that following a Right View of the world, there will be Right Intentions and based on these intentions certain actions. If V&V are synonyms of saṅkappa questions then follow as to what kind of intentions they are? I think certainly some form of initial thought and investigation is involved, a pre-verbal sort of thought. I would say these are directed at the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna. You direct your mind towards the breath, the feelings being experienced, to the mind and the qualities of mind and examine them in terms of calm or not, carnal or spiritual, distracted or not-distracted, hindrance present or not. Since these are intentions directed towards the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna they fulfil Right Intention of renunciation, non-cruelty and non-ill will.
I'd like to know if you think that in 2-3-4th jhana there is no intentional activity.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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jankala wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:53 pm MN125
Going back to this sutta, I said I see some problem with the Pāli version. This is really something Venerable Anālayo pointed out, so I'm not taking any credit here. If we sum up MN 125 we find:

- sense-restraint,
- moderation with food,
- wakefulness,
- mindfulness and clear comprehension,
- the removal of the five hindrances,
- the four Satipaṭṭhāna
- entry into the 2nd Jhāna

The text then goes on to say that whilst practicing the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna one should abandon any thoughts (vitakka) connected with the household life, then any thoughts (vitakka) in relation to the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna. Once they have done this, they enter the 2nd Jhāna. This is usually pointed to for the view that whilst in the 1st Jhāna everyday thinking occurs. Verbalised thinking, trains of thoughts etc. The problem with the sutta is that it has the removal of the hindrances before practicing Satipaṭṭhāna, whilst elsewhere it is said the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna are the means to abandon the hindrances. A further problem is that we have the curious case of where someone has abandoned the hindrances, yet still thinks thoughts connected with the lay life. This shouldn't happen, if there are no hindrances present. Also, on vitakka here, it doesn't establish if these thoughts are mental verbal trains of thoughts. Consider the following here


Seyyathāpi, aggivessana, hatthidamako mahantaṁ thambhaṁ pathaviyaṁ nikhaṇitvā āraññakassa nāgassa gīvāyaṁ upanibandhati āraññakānañceva sīlānaṁ abhinimmadanāya āraññakānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṁ abhinimmadanāya āraññakānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṁ abhinimmadanāya gāmante abhiramāpanāya manussakantesu sīlesu samādapanāya;

It’s like when the elephant trainer dug a large post into the earth and tethered the elephant to it by the neck, so as to subdue its wild behaviors, its wild memories and intentions, and its wild stress, weariness, and fever, and to make it happy to be within a village, and instill behaviors congenial to humans.

‘ehi tvaṁ, bhikkhu, kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi, mā ca kāmūpasaṁhitaṁ vitakkaṁ vitakkesi.
‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.


Sujato has translated saṅkappa as "thoughts" for the elephant, but clearly elephants don't have verbal thoughts. They do however have intentional thoughts, so I've opted for "intentions" here. With that in mind the text seems to be using saṅkappā and vitakka as synonyms here. Just like how the elephant no longer has wild saṅkappa, so the meditator should have no vitakka connected with sensual pleasures. If they are synonymous with each other then "vitakkaṁ vitakkesi" would mean "do not think an intentional thought directed to sensual pleasures". Once these saṅkappa/vitakka have ceased, then there is the 2nd Jhāna. The Pāli text then strongly implies that "vitakka" in vitakka-vicāra should be viewed more as intentions rather than normal discursive thoughts. However, if someone wishes to reject the sutta then we also have the parallel to look at. In the parallel we have the following

- purity of body, speech, mind
- Satipaṭṭhāna with no household thoughts
- Satipaṭṭhāna without any thoughts
- 1st to 4th Jhāna

In the parallel version, we do not see the oddity of having householder thoughts occur after the hindrances have been abandoned. Rather it is presented in a way that the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna are the means to abandon the hindrances. This is connected with abandoning thoughts of the lay life whilst practicing Satipaṭṭhāna. Then we are told there is to be a ceasing of thoughts about the Satipaṭṭhāna. When this is accomplished then, contrary to the sutta, the 1st Jhāna occurs. In this version, since "thoughts" have ceased before the 1st Jhāna yet vitakka still occurs in the 1st Jhāna, the text supports the idea that "vitakka" in the Jhāna formular means something different to when it is used elsewhere. What it means then depends on the context. This could then inform how one reads suttas and their parallels such as MN 20 and others.

To conclude then, based on this sutta and it's parallel it cannot be established that "vitakka" in the Jhāna formular means normal verbal thinking (for those who think verbally) akin to reading a book. A limitation to my argument is my inability to examine the Chinese, to see if "thoughts with the householder life" is a translation of "vitakka"
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:44 pm
I'd like to know if you think that in 2-3-4th jhana there is no intentional activity.
To enter Jhāna one's mind becomes santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati and ekodi.

Santiṭṭhati: stands still; remains; to be fixed or settled

Sannisīdati: settles; subsides; becomes quiet

Ekodi: woven into one, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart

Intentional activity disturbs the mind. It is there in the 1st Jhāna, but it is brought to cease. In the 2nd Jhāna, the emotional feeling (cetasika) of rapture is the disturbance.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:06 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:44 pm
I'd like to know if you think that in 2-3-4th jhana there is no intentional activity.
To enter Jhāna one's mind becomes santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati and ekodi.

Santiṭṭhati: stands still; remains; to be fixed or settled

Sannisīdati: settles; subsides; becomes quiet

Ekodi: woven into one, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart

Intentional activity disturbs the mind. It is there in the 1st Jhāna, but it is brought to cease. In the 2nd Jhāna, the emotional feeling (cetasika) of rapture is the disturbance.
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight occurs inside jhana?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:06 pm In a certain sense V&V seem to be synonymous.
Note. Looking at the combination vitakka + vicāra in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing: just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous), and that one has to take them as; one expression, like jānāti passati, without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general. The explains of Commentators are mostly of an edifying nature and based more on popular etymology than on natural psychological grounds.
A problem with that is the suttas which treat them as separate things, as Venerable Dhammanando pointed out on SuttaCentral recently to me.
That is a big problem with what is written above (that seems Sujato btw). Bodhi and I would say every other translator sees Vitakka and Vicara as terms that are related to thought in general, but Vicara as an exploration, a "taking" of the first vitakka to do something about that and it makes a lot of sense if you look at the examples of vicara in Frankk's page. vi-"car" is to move, roam, it give sense of truly looking at the question in many ways (my master said that one should really look at impermanence like it is a gem, with interest and from every angle) so that one is deeply sure about the matter.
If, while he is giving attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should examine the danger in those thoughts thus: ‘These thoughts are unwholesome, they are reprehensible, they result in suffering.’ When he examines the danger in those thoughts, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside.
is an example of Vitakka&Vicara. Those words are not used technically, but very loosely just like we can do here. If I come to you and say "I've thought about it for three months" even if I don't say "I've reasoned and pondered about this for three months" it is clear that what I've done is reasoned and pondered about that looking at every angle of the question. Doing that is the crux of the Dhamma, looking at sensuality and renunciation from every angle so to strenghten intentions and cleanse thought itself. Cleansed thought (with cleansed intentions underneath ofc, else is mantra recitation of a parrot) is first Jhana.

But the point is that if I add Vicara to Vitakka, then it is even more clear that I'm asking you to do a careful, very careful exploration of the matter. And we have many trains of thought that are actually careful exploration of impermanence, of the drawbacks, of the pleasure of renunciation, of the dustiness of laylife. Those springs from intentions and serve the purpose to create and reinforce intentions. Just when you reflect about the Dhamma, it spring from intentions and serve the purpose to create and reinforce the conviction that Dhamma is good for you.
In a way this is close to what occurs in vipassana meditation and their vipassana Jhāna. I'm not sure about your point regarding it being rare to have an intention and not "verbalise it" (although not everyone thinks in terms of verbal thoughts). In my life I see myself intending all the time without thinking it out.
In Vipassana there's recognition, labeling (Mahasi) as far as I know. Which is very good for some purposes and It is the first practice that I've done for a long period of time actually, being the most diffused here in Italy. But I think that the Vitakka&Vicara of the sutta is more powerful, more apt to create convinction, good intentions, etc. It can be used even in laylife as a procedure to make good decisions, because renunciation is that: a good decision when you really look at the drawbacks in an honest way.
I can also think and ponder without ever having a verbal thought go through my mind.
This is interesting. If you speak about mathematics, programming or logic, fine, I too can pass hours without a thought (or at least they are in the background, but if they are in the background, who knows). But you can actually think about yourself (for example thinking what is the best route to do for you life, if it is better for you to get married or not, reflecting on your qualities, making plans for the future) without having a verbal thought? It seems very strange, it is those kinds of things (thinking about self, things that are mine or that I want) that are very hard to think and ponder without using words.
Last edited by nirodh27 on Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:06 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:44 pm
I'd like to know if you think that in 2-3-4th jhana there is no intentional activity.
To enter Jhāna one's mind becomes santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati and ekodi.

Santiṭṭhati: stands still; remains; to be fixed or settled

Sannisīdati: settles; subsides; becomes quiet

Ekodi: woven into one, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart

Intentional activity disturbs the mind. It is there in the 1st Jhāna, but it is brought to cease. In the 2nd Jhāna, the emotional feeling (cetasika) of rapture is the disturbance.
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight occurs inside jhana?
I think the Jhāna sutta (AN 9.36) supports that view, up until nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. On a side note, there is no parallel listed on SuttaCentral but one did exist in the past
The parallel of the Jhāna Sutta is not found in the Chinese Āgamas, but is completely preserved in the Dharmaskandha, one of the six pāda works in the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma.577 It is called Qiyi jing 七依經 in the Chinese canon, and is cited by the Abhidharma masters of different schools to demonstrate that the śamatha needed by a yogin to develop insight is the four dhyānas and the three lower formless attainments, namely the “attainments with perception.”578 The *Mahāvibhāṣā, the *Tattvasiddhiśāstra, the *Prakaraṇāryavākāśāstra, and the *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā all cite the Qiyijing 七依經to explain that the extirpation of taints occurs dependent on the first seven meditative attainments; that is, insight is developed while one is in the attainments with perception.579
- Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:17 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:06 pm

To enter Jhāna one's mind becomes santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati and ekodi.

Santiṭṭhati: stands still; remains; to be fixed or settled

Sannisīdati: settles; subsides; becomes quiet

Ekodi: woven into one, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart

Intentional activity disturbs the mind. It is there in the 1st Jhāna, but it is brought to cease. In the 2nd Jhāna, the emotional feeling (cetasika) of rapture is the disturbance.
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight occurs inside jhana?
I think the Jhāna sutta (AN 9.36) supports that view, up until nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. On a side note, there is no parallel listed on SuttaCentral but one did exist in the past
The parallel of the Jhāna Sutta is not found in the Chinese Āgamas, but is completely preserved in the Dharmaskandha, one of the six pāda works in the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma.577 It is called Qiyi jing 七依經 in the Chinese canon, and is cited by the Abhidharma masters of different schools to demonstrate that the śamatha needed by a yogin to develop insight is the four dhyānas and the three lower formless attainments, namely the “attainments with perception.”578 The *Mahāvibhāṣā, the *Tattvasiddhiśāstra, the *Prakaraṇāryavākāśāstra, and the *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā all cite the Qiyijing 七依經to explain that the extirpation of taints occurs dependent on the first seven meditative attainments; that is, insight is developed while one is in the attainments with perception.579
Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight implies reflection?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:11 pm This is interesting. If you speak about mathematics, programming or logic, fine, I too can pass hours without a thought (or at least they are in the background, but if they are in the background, who knows). But you can actually think about yourself (for example thinking what is the best route to do for you life, if it is better for you to get married or not, reflecting on your qualities, making plans for the future) without having a verbal thought? It seems very strange, it is those kinds of things (thinking about self, things that are mine or that I want) that are very hard to think and ponder without using words.
Not every human thinks with verbal thoughts. Some people think completely in terms of images.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:17 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:09 pm

OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight occurs inside jhana?
I think the Jhāna sutta (AN 9.36) supports that view, up until nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. On a side note, there is no parallel listed on SuttaCentral but one did exist in the past
The parallel of the Jhāna Sutta is not found in the Chinese Āgamas, but is completely preserved in the Dharmaskandha, one of the six pāda works in the Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma.577 It is called Qiyi jing 七依經 in the Chinese canon, and is cited by the Abhidharma masters of different schools to demonstrate that the śamatha needed by a yogin to develop insight is the four dhyānas and the three lower formless attainments, namely the “attainments with perception.”578 The *Mahāvibhāṣā, the *Tattvasiddhiśāstra, the *Prakaraṇāryavākāśāstra, and the *Abhidharmasamuccayavyākhyā all cite the Qiyijing 七依經to explain that the extirpation of taints occurs dependent on the first seven meditative attainments; that is, insight is developed while one is in the attainments with perception.579
Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight implies reflection?
In the Jhāna Sutta sutta it involves samanupassati. Your question really revolves around the role of paṭisañcikkhati. I am going to write a post addressed to Sam to discuss it further.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:24 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:17 pm

I think the Jhāna sutta (AN 9.36) supports that view, up until nevasaññānāsaññāyatana. On a side note, there is no parallel listed on SuttaCentral but one did exist in the past



Issues in Śamatha and Vipaśyanā: A Comparative Study of Buddhist Meditation
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight implies reflection?
In the Jhāna Sutta sutta it involves samanupassati. Your question really revolves around the role of paṭisañcikkhati. I am going to write a post addressed to Sam to discuss it further.
You wrote 'reflection' involved in liberating insight, some weeks ago.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:24 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:19 pm
OK, next question: do you think that liberating insight implies reflection?
In the Jhāna Sutta sutta it involves samanupassati. Your question really revolves around the role of paṭisañcikkhati. I am going to write a post addressed to Sam to discuss it further.
You wrote 'reflection' implied in liberating insight, some weeks ago.
Consider it's role here

“Idha, gahapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.So iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘idampi kho paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ. Yaṁ kho pana kiñci abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ tadaniccaṁ nirodhadhamman’ti pajānāti. So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṁ khayaṁ pāpuṇāti.

“Householder, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Then they reflect: ‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements."


https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/sujato ... ript=latin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:30 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:24 pm

In the Jhāna Sutta sutta it involves samanupassati. Your question really revolves around the role of paṭisañcikkhati. I am going to write a post addressed to Sam to discuss it further.
You wrote 'reflection' implied in liberating insight, some weeks ago.
Consider it's role here

“Idha, gahapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.So iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘idampi kho paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ. Yaṁ kho pana kiñci abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ tadaniccaṁ nirodhadhamman’ti pajānāti. So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṁ khayaṁ pāpuṇāti.

“Householder, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Then they reflect: ‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements."


https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/sujato ... ript=latin
But this is about 1st jhana.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by pegembara »

According to Cullavedalla Sutta, vitakka and vicara ceases, then in and out breathing until there is cessation of perception and feeling.
There’s a progress through the jhanas all the way until the full cessation of perception and feeling.

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:30 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:28 pm
You wrote 'reflection' implied in liberating insight, some weeks ago.
Consider it's role here

“Idha, gahapati, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.So iti paṭisañcikkhati: ‘idampi kho paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ. Yaṁ kho pana kiñci abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ tadaniccaṁ nirodhadhamman’ti pajānāti. So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṁ khayaṁ pāpuṇāti.

“Householder, it’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Then they reflect: ‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements."


https://suttacentral.net/mn52/en/sujato ... ript=latin
But this is about 1st jhana.
It goes up to Nothingness, which is the same presentation as the Jhana sutta. Perhaps “directly seeing” and “reflection” are synonyms here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:20 pm Not every human thinks with verbal thoughts. Some people think completely in terms of images.
This is fascinating. Luckily the Buddha makes many examples that are for those that are stuck with internal verbalization :jumping:
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