Vitakka & Vicāra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:21 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:31 pm

Taking a close look at MN 19/20, vitakka seems to indicate intent or the direction of thought in terms of wholesome/unwholesome; greed/hate/delusion or non greed/non hate/non delusion. And vicara seems to indicate wandering/exploring/pondering within an established extent of vitakka. Keeping in mind there is right and wrong samadhi, it is not out of the question to be established wrongly and to able to dwell in that wrong direction. Again, that is really just what those two suttas really seem to point at.
According to the PTS dictionary vitakka is a synonym for saṅkappa, and so is closer to intention in meaning.
I recall prepping a few suttas that never materialized into a study group session where this was the theme (all the different terms for thoughts/thinking). It seems as though saṅkappa casts an even wider net than vitakka, but very much the same principle. It seems saṅkappa is the most prominent of intentions (right or wrong), but in terms of the N8FP, when developed as right would imply vitakka of a wholesome kind as perpetually available on account of it, i.e. knowing wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome.
Here it is
saṅkappa
thought, intention, purpose, plan DN.iii.215; SN.ii.143 sq.; AN.i.281 AN.ii.36; Dhp.74; Snp verse 154, Snp verse 1144; Mnd.616 (= vitakka ñāṇa paññā buddhi); Ds.21; Dhp-a.ii.78. As equivalent of vitakka also at DN.iii.215; AN.iv.385; Ds.7
■ kāma˚ a lustful thought AN.iii.259; AN.v.31. paripuṇṇa˚; having one’s intentions fulfilled MN.i.192; MN.iii.276; DN.iii.42; AN.v.92, AN.v.97 sq.; sara˚; memories & hopes MN.i.453; SN.iv.76 vyāpāda˚, vihiṁsa˚, malicious, cruel purposes, MN.ii.27 sq.; sammā˚; right thoughts or intentions, one of the angas of the 8-fold Path (ariya-magga) Vin.i.10; DN.ii.312; AN.iii.140; Vb-a.117. Sankappa is defined at Dhs-a.124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanā, i.e. application of the mind See on term also Cpd. 238.
https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kappa
vitakka of a wholesome kind as perpetually available on account of it, i.e. knowing wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome.
Wouldn't that be dhamma-vicaya?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
jankala
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:59 am

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by jankala »

Greetings!

There are some very enlightening suttas in the Samyutta Nikāya which help shed light on vitakka-vicāra in the context of bhavana/jhāna.

SN 46.3 Sīlasutta
(...) Because after hearing the teaching of such mendicants, a mendicant will live withdrawn in both body and mind,
Tathārūpānaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhūnaṁ dhammaṁ sutvā dvayena vūpakāsena vūpakaṭṭho viharati—kāyavūpakāsena ca cittavūpakāsena ca.
as they recollect and think about that teaching.
So tathā vūpakaṭṭho viharanto taṁ dhammaṁ anussarati anuvitakketi.
At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of mindfulness;
(...)As they live mindfully in this way they investigate, explore, and inquire into that teaching with wisdom.
So tathā sato viharanto taṁ dhammaṁ paññāya pavicinati pavicarati parivīmaṁsamāpajjati.
At such a time, a mendicant has activated the awakening factor of investigation of principles
As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas). This fits in rather well also with the idea of "thinking and pondering," "directed thought and evaluation," "reasoning and deliberation," etc. We see 'vitakka' as the mind directed to a theme, thinking OF something, and 'vicara' pondering it, examining it, the mind 'wandering' with the theme (from the etymology of the word).

This also makes sense of some of the suttas such as AN 8.63, where there is an instance of the "3-way samādhi"; that is, with vitakka and vicāra, without vitakka but with vicāra, and then without both vitakka and vicāra.
We also see in SN 47.10 for instance the difference between "directed" satipatthāna practice to fulfill the bojjhangas -> samadhi/jhāna, etc., vs. "undirected" practice. Directed practice is where one directs the mind to an 'inspiring theme' and thinks about it and evaluates/ponders over it, then once the mind is joyful and calmer, one withdraws the thinking and pondering, or directed thought and evaluation. Once the mind is no longer directly applying itself to think about the theme, it may still be doing some subtle pondering and deliberation/evaluation of the topic already established (avitakka, vicara), until that is stilled and the mind settles into 'noble silence' -> second jhāna.

This, of course, naturally makes sense of the use of vitakka-vicara in relation to jhāna and other suttas about thoughts. We have to direct the mind away from unwholesome thoughts, and direct the mind to think about wholesome ones (MN 19, MN 20, etc.), and once the mind has been properly secluded from sensuality on the level even of thinking and is only thinking and pondering about wholesome things that establish sati, dhammaviciya, and lead to joy and calm, those thoughts are settled because they can make the body/mind tired (MN 19), and the mind can more easily settle into stable samādhi (2nd jhāna). This matches up with the Dantabhūmi sutta for instance as well (MN 125), where one transitions from the satipatthanas with thinking, to stilling the thinking and entering directly into 2nd jhāna.

It seems as others have said that 'examining' may (in some contexts) reflect the usage of vicara, though honestly I think "pondering" is a very down-to-earth, accurate translation. As soon as we go into "applied and sustained mental application," we've deviated from what these normal, everyday Pali words actually mean. They apply to meditation as is without needing to be filtered over with new meanings—something most of us probably agree upon. "Pondering," "examining," "deliberating," "turning over in the mind," etc. all are good for me. "Vitakka" seems to be more reasoned selection and direction of thought to things. I think about X, then Y, then Z. I think and 'hammer out' a view (as some suttas mention with 'takka').

I thought it was interesting and helpful to bring these things together. It's rather obvious that "vitakka-vicara" do not imply or ever mean something other than directing thought to ideas or topics/reasoning, and then the pondering/deliberation/turning over in the mind of that thought. It's nothing mystical or separate in relation to samādhi, and we see this same usage of the words align with descriptions of proper use of thought, and then stilling even wholesome thoughts: two themes very prominent in the suttas.

With mettā!
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm
vitakka of a wholesome kind as perpetually available on account of it, i.e. knowing wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome.
Wouldn't that be dhamma-vicaya?
Yes. What I mean is that it depends on the direction of attention. The intention/thinking that makes the quality/state available is probably an accurate way to say it. Vitakka not connected with greed/hate/delusion would make discrimination possible. Even if lust is what’s being discerned, it is wholesome to recognize this thinking as present, which would allow it to subside. Let me know if I’ve picked up what you’re asking because I wouldn’t want to push into the weeds if we can avoid it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm ...
It seems to me the wholesome thoughts or teachings to reflect upon is impermanence. Through the perception of impermanence the hindrances are dissolved and faith arises (in the sense of the Buddha knew what he was talking about, and so faith in his awakening). Through faith and freedom from the hindrances there is gladness. When glad, rapture. Rapturous there is tranquillity and being tranquil there is happiness. All the Jhāna factors are in place, and so samādhi follows leading onto equanimity.

“When he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated." - DN 2

"birth; with birth as proximate cause, suffering; with suffering as proximate cause, faith; with faith as proximate cause, gladness; with gladness as proximate cause, rapture; with rapture as proximate cause, tranquillity; with tranquillity as proximate cause, happiness; with happiness as proximate cause, concentration; with concentration as proximate cause, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are; with the knowledge and vision of things as they really are as proximate cause, revulsion; with revulsion as proximate cause, dispassion; with dispassion as proximate cause, liberation; with liberation as proximate cause, the knowledge of destruction."

If we also consider that in the ānāpānasati sutta it is said that whilst breathing, we are to

... practice breathing in observing impermanence. They practice breathing out observing impermanence. They practice breathing in observing fading away. They practice breathing out observing fading away. They practice breathing in observing cessation. They practice breathing out observing cessation. They practice breathing in observing letting go. They practice breathing out observing letting go." - MN 118

I see a similar scheme in the insight Jhānas of the Vipassana meditation movement.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm
vitakka of a wholesome kind as perpetually available on account of it, i.e. knowing wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome.
Wouldn't that be dhamma-vicaya?
Yes. What I mean is that it depends on the direction of attention. The intention/thinking that makes the quality/state available is probably an accurate way to say it. Vitakka not connected with greed/hate/delusion would make discrimination possible. Even if lust is what’s being discerned, it is wholesome to recognize this thinking as present, which would allow it to subside. Let me know if I’ve picked up what you’re asking because I wouldn’t want to push into the weeds if we can avoid it.
Sounds ok, from what I understand. You start to lose me with the phenomenological speak.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:06 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:24 pm


Wouldn't that be dhamma-vicaya?
Yes. What I mean is that it depends on the direction of attention. The intention/thinking that makes the quality/state available is probably an accurate way to say it. Vitakka not connected with greed/hate/delusion would make discrimination possible. Even if lust is what’s being discerned, it is wholesome to recognize this thinking as present, which would allow it to subside. Let me know if I’ve picked up what you’re asking because I wouldn’t want to push into the weeds if we can avoid it.
Sounds ok, from what I understand. You start to lose me with the phenomenological speak.
As much as it may have come off that way, I was doing my best to use Bhikkhu Bodhi’s phrasing based on the two suttas in question. Especially MN 20 - there’s so much packed together between mano, nimitta, vitakka and citta. Very dense.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Jankala: Thanks for a very thoughtful analysis of SN 46.3.
The sutta had impressed me in the past since the intention of four agama paralles SA 723, SA 724, SA 736, SA 740 are reflected within it.
This part of your comment helped me the most, in consolidating my own understanding of vitakka and vicara.
As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas)
Sati leading to Awakening factors! Satipatthana enables the meditator to withdraw from the sensory world. The ensuing isolation is ideal for further investigation of Dhamma.
Thank you for the time spent in coming up with your excellent contribution. The manner of your reasoning impressed me.
With love :candle:
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas). This fits in rather well also with the idea of "thinking and pondering," "directed thought and evaluation," "reasoning and deliberation," etc. We see 'vitakka' as the mind directed to a theme, thinking OF something, and 'vicara' pondering it, examining it, the mind 'wandering' with the theme (from the etymology of the word).
Aren't the words "anuvitakketi" and " pavicarati" rather than just "vitakka" and "vicāra"?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:01 pm
jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas). This fits in rather well also with the idea of "thinking and pondering," "directed thought and evaluation," "reasoning and deliberation," etc. We see 'vitakka' as the mind directed to a theme, thinking OF something, and 'vicara' pondering it, examining it, the mind 'wandering' with the theme (from the etymology of the word).
Aren't the words "anuvitakketi" and " pavicarati" rather than just "vitakka" and "vicāra"?
Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:14 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:01 pm
jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas). This fits in rather well also with the idea of "thinking and pondering," "directed thought and evaluation," "reasoning and deliberation," etc. We see 'vitakka' as the mind directed to a theme, thinking OF something, and 'vicara' pondering it, examining it, the mind 'wandering' with the theme (from the etymology of the word).
Aren't the words "anuvitakketi" and " pavicarati" rather than just "vitakka" and "vicāra"?
Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
:thumbsup:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm
This matches up with the Dantabhūmi sutta for instance as well (MN 125), where one transitions from the satipatthanas with thinking, to stilling the thinking and entering directly into 2nd jhāna.
If I remember correctly the parallel has those thoughts ceasing at the 1st Jhana, which suggests that the meaning of vitakka changes depending on the context. There are also other issues with the Pali version. I’ll post more later.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:14 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:01 pm
jankala wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:43 pm As I tried to show in bold here, the word 'vitakka' is given in the description of sati (mindfulness/recollectedness), and the word 'vicara' is given in the description of dhammaviciya (investigation of dhammas). This fits in rather well also with the idea of "thinking and pondering," "directed thought and evaluation," "reasoning and deliberation," etc. We see 'vitakka' as the mind directed to a theme, thinking OF something, and 'vicara' pondering it, examining it, the mind 'wandering' with the theme (from the etymology of the word).
Aren't the words "anuvitakketi" and " pavicarati" rather than just "vitakka" and "vicāra"?
Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
Is there a difference between vicara and vicarati, or vitakka and vitakketi?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:04 am
SDC wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:14 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:01 pm

Aren't the words "anuvitakketi" and " pavicarati" rather than just "vitakka" and "vicāra"?
Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
Is there a difference between vicara and vicarati, or vitakka and vitakketi?
Only that the second of each pair is the verb, and the former is the noun derived from it.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:28 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:04 am
SDC wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:14 am

Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
Is there a difference between vicara and vicarati, or vitakka and vitakketi?
Only that the second of each pair is the verb, and the former is the noun derived from it.
Thanks. That’s is quite helpful as I remember Venerable Dhammanando recommending that the verb form can give a better idea of what a word means, as it’s more resistant to change.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:28 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:04 am
SDC wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:14 am

Yes. Same with some of the others I posted. According to PTS, the prefixes anu- and pa- are “directional prefixes” indicating some degree of action, and of course both are verbs inflected accordingly. Certainly a different context than jhana, so not surprised they are described explicitly as actions rather than qualities (as with jhana).

*Paging Pali gurus*
Is there a difference between vicara and vicarati, or vitakka and vitakketi?
Only that the second of each pair is the verb, and the former is the noun derived from it.
I wonder what the difference is between paṭisañcikkhati and v&v there? If I remember correctly paṭisañcikkhati occurs in all Jhana, and is part of insight, whilst V&V ceases in the 2nd (unless you are a Sarvastivadin). Perhaps that v&v is more intentional whilst paṭisañcikkhati is less so and is more spontaneous reflection, if there is Right View and mindfulness?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply