Vitakka & Vicāra

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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi Sam Vara,

Ah, The mother of all jhana discussions :lol:

The best to make an idea for yourself, is to use the work of Frankk where all the passages of vitakka are reported and then use the browser search function to search for "vicara". I think that 200 results are worth to be passed one by one.

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html

Particularly interesting are the suttas like an3.60 and others in which the thinking and pondering of another is read by mind-reading.

(Bodhi translation)
“Again, someone does not declare the state of mind on the basis of a mark, or by hearing the sound of people, spirits, or deities speaking, but he hears the sound of the diffusion of thought as one is thinking and examining (vitakkayato vicārayato) some matter and then declares: ‘Your thought is thus, such is what you are thinking, your mind is in such and such a state.’ And even if he makes many declarations, they are exactly so and not otherwise.
Here, for example, Vitakka&Vicara are used and it is clear that is thinking and pondering, verbal train of thoughts. I would say that it is sufficently clear everywhere else, especially if the agamas are put into the game.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:35 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:28 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:04 am

Is there a difference between vicara and vicarati, or vitakka and vitakketi?
Only that the second of each pair is the verb, and the former is the noun derived from it.
I wonder what the difference is between paṭisañcikkhati and v&v there? If I remember correctly paṭisañcikkhati occurs in all Jhana, and is part of insight, whilst V&V ceases in the 2nd (unless you are a Sarvastivadin). Perhaps that v&v is more intentional whilst paṭisañcikkhati is less so and is more spontaneous reflection, if there is Right View and mindfulness?
Where does it say about patisancikkhati occurring in all jhana? I can't remember that one. Cikkhati is to tell or announce, so that seems, with the prefixes, to refer to a process of representing something to oneself; almost a sub-vocal stating of something in verbal terms. It's used in this way in MN 74, for example, to show reflection upon a view that someone has adopted, and what its consequences would be.

The dictionaries don't make much of the differences between takketi, vitakketi, and anuvitakketi, although the root takka has essentially negative connotations in the suttas, meaning something like "twisting"; it seems to involve some kind of dialectical or argumentative process. For example, there is that term the Retro has frequently referred to: takkapariyahatam, a view hammered or knocked out by reason. But there is also dhammatakka which is evidently good reasoning!

When there are other verbs given the "anu - vi - " prefixes, their meanings change a lot. loketi, for example, means to look, viloketi means to inspect (as one would expect with an intensifier) and anu definitely has the sense of "around" or a process, as anuviloketi means something like "survey", or "look around, look over".
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by jankala »

Anu- in this context as I understand it just means continuously or a kind of repeated action, at least as I've heard it explained.

Anuvitakketi is the verb for continuously thinking, directing the mind, etc. about the topic, which matches with the meaning of anu- and the context in which it occurs. Similar to anussati, etc.

Vitakketi, as others said, is simply the verb meaning 'to think,' and 'vitakka' is the noun meaning 'thinking'.
Vicarati can also literally mean 'wander', but also refers to pondering/examining/deliberating over (as in a kind of 'mental wandering') over a topic, such as in this context, or in the context of vitakka-vicāra (with the verbal noun vicāra once again, "wandering" or "pondering" or "examining" as in the dictionaries).

The definition of pavicarati in some dictionaries is "to investigate thoroughly"— the pa- contributing the "thorough" aspect. Here is part of the definition:
often emphasising the action as carried on in a marked degree
The prefixes (in this case) do not change the core meaning of vitakka/vitakketi and vicara/vicarati. They simply add some natural. contextual intensification to the words, as is very common in Pāḷi speech. It's good to remember that, despite what later Abhidhamma ended up doing, Pāḷi was not a highly technical, Buddhist-only language that can express meditative concepts with extreme precision unlike other languages. It's a normal, average Middle-Indo-Aryan language, distantly related to English, with normal words and normal meanings. Some of those things end up having more specific usages in Buddhist contexts, of course. But vitakka and vicāra are not one of those as used in the suttas and from the lips of the Buddha.

It can be good to put ourselves in the place of the audience. We all speak English, so let's so we're in an English speaking environment, and pretend we're all native English speakers. And a Buddha comes to teach us Dhamma, and he says:
"When you're in this meditative state, there will be thinking and pondering, and joy and happiness."

How would we interpret that? Would we say: "By thinking and pondering, he must mean a mental application that directs the mind to a nimitta and then sustains its focus on a conceptual object"? Of course not. This is the same position that the people listening to the Buddha were in. He was speaking a language that they all knew since birth, and that they used in everyday life for completely normal daily tasks. Words such as thinking and pondering/examining were used all the time, I'd presume, considering people still thought back then and there are no other words in the language.
Even if the Buddha wasn't speaking Pāḷi, it was a language extremely close to it, essentially a dialectal difference.

Also, recall that the Buddha would very specifically and explicitly re-define terms "in this discipline" when he used them differently. Such as when he defined the world as the six senses, or when he defined blood as breast-milk in some contexts, etc. etc. It happened all the time, and he would always explain himself. Why? Again, people were using this very normal, common language. If he was using a term strangely, he would need to specify, just as any English (or any other language) speaker would need to do when they use a word differently. He never did that with vitakka and vicara, and these come up thousands of times in all sorts of contexts, the jhānas being one of the most frequent.

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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:21 pm According to the PTS dictionary vitakka is a synonym for saṅkappa, and so is closer to intention in meaning.
Ven. Sujato translates sammāsankappo as right thought rather than right intention.
asahi wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:23 pm I wonder if vitakka were to translate as thinking , shouldnt vicara translate as examining instead of pondering ? It appears examine and ponder are not the same .
If you say ponder I get the idea of making judgements and fabricating conclusions. But if you say examine I get the idea of just getting aware of what the thing is about. To me the first one is something "heavy" while the second one is "lighter". I think one can make examinations with no malice or personal interest but I doubt pondering can be exempt of these. In any case, I don't know if pondering subsides and if dhammas are examined or if it's the other way around or if it's all the same...
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

A psychopath can sit thinking about renunciation “renunciation, renunciation”. Does that mean he has Right Thought? Seems to me it’s more about the intent.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:01 pm A psychopath can sit thinking about renunciation “renunciation, renunciation”. Does that mean he has Right Thought? Seems to me it’s more about the intent.
Sujato's translations are really bad IMO. And I agree with you, it seems it's right intention.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:01 pm A psychopath can sit thinking about renunciation “renunciation, renunciation”. Does that mean he has Right Thought? Seems to me it’s more about the intent.
Sujato's translations are really bad IMO. And I agree with you, it seems it's right intention.
Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:01 pm A psychopath can sit thinking about renunciation “renunciation, renunciation”. Does that mean he has Right Thought? Seems to me it’s more about the intent.
Sujato's translations are really bad IMO. And I agree with you, it seems it's right intention.
Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm ... v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”...
If they are closer to intentions I would use pondering rather than examining then. And would use directing thought rather than simply thinking.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm ... As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Yes, it's about the underlying intentions of those thoughts and pondering
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:01 pm
Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
[/quote]

Hi Ceisiwr,

Sankappa can be a synonim of Vitakka, not of Vitakka and Vicara that points to an activity that is based on intentions (like every activity), but is a thought and reflection activity as shown in many examples. To extend the synonim to Vitakka&Vicara is unwarranted. When one is thinking about the drawbacks or the pleasure and the advantages of renunciation to realize the Dhamma into themselves, for meditation to work there must be the underlying right intention. That doesn't mean that there's only intention, there's a train of thought, reflection, pondering which is done by thought activity of the mind. This is clearly pointed out by the two words v&v.

Intention fuels reflection and thought, reflection strenghten intention and the cycle goes on and on.

Intention is one of the first things (that is why is just after right view) and thought and reflection in accordance with the Dhamma (MA102) springs from the right intention. It is not thought like a parrot, like a mantra. Take a look at the examples of the train of thoughts reported in the Pali canon, it is a sincere reflection that reinforces understanding by reinforcing understanding you reinforce also intention itself.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:24 pm
Sujato's translations are really bad IMO. And I agree with you, it seems it's right intention.
Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.
Hi Alex,

The point is simply that when I say "I intended to kill you" and "I thought to kill you" that can be seen as saying the same thing: it is rare to have an intention and not verbalize it and it is rare that a thought that feels yours doesn't have an intention underneath. But when you say thinking and pondering, that means that a train of thoughts is there, since you cannot reflect and explore questions and teachings without using words, imagination, memories, names. That doesn't mean that there are no intentions, quite the contrary, but there's much more.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:24 pm
Sujato's translations are really bad IMO. And I agree with you, it seems it's right intention.
Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.
Yes. The problem is in the ambiguity in the word "thinking".
saṅkappa
thought, intention, purpose, plan DN.iii.215; SN.ii.143 sq.; AN.i.281 AN.ii.36; Dhp.74; Snp verse 154, Snp verse 1144; Mnd.616 (= vitakka ñāṇa paññā buddhi); Ds.21; Dhp-a.ii.78. As equivalent of vitakka also at DN.iii.215; AN.iv.385; Ds.7
■ kāma˚ a lustful thought AN.iii.259; AN.v.31. paripuṇṇa˚; having one’s intentions fulfilled MN.i.192; MN.iii.276; DN.iii.42; AN.v.92, AN.v.97 sq.; sara˚; memories & hopes MN.i.453; SN.iv.76 vyāpāda˚, vihiṁsa˚, malicious, cruel purposes, MN.ii.27 sq.; sammā˚; right thoughts or intentions, one of the angas of the 8-fold Path (ariya-magga) Vin.i.10; DN.ii.312; AN.iii.140; Vb-a.117. Sankappa is defined at Dhs-a.124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanā, i.e. application of the mind See on term also Cpd. 238.
https://suttacentral.net/define/sa%E1%B9%85kappa

It seems to me that following a Right View of the world, there will be Right Intentions and based on these intentions certain actions. If V&V are synonyms of saṅkappa questions then follow as to what kind of intentions they are? I think certainly some form of initial thought and investigation is involved, a pre-verbal sort of thought. I would say these are directed at the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna. You direct your mind towards the breath, the feelings being experienced, to the mind and the qualities of mind and examine them in terms of calm or not, carnal or spiritual, distracted or not-distracted, hindrance present or not. Since these are intentions directed towards the 4 Satipaṭṭhāna they fulfil Right Intention of renunciation, non-cruelty and non-ill will.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:54 pm
Hi Ceisiwr,

Sankappa can be a synonim of Vitakka, not of Vitakka and Vicara that points to an activity that is based on intentions (like every activity), but is a thought and reflection activity as shown in many examples. To extend the synonim to Vitakka&Vicara is unwarranted. When one is thinking about the drawbacks or the pleasure and the advantages of renunciation to realize the Dhamma into themselves, for meditation to work there must be the underlying right intention. That doesn't mean that there's only intention, there's a train of thought, reflection, pondering which is done by thought activity of the mind. This is clearly pointed out by the two words v&v.

Intention fuels reflection and thought, reflection strenghten intention and the cycle goes on and on.

Intention is one of the first things (that is why is just after right view) and thought and reflection in accordance with the Dhamma (MA102) springs from the right intention. It is not thought like a parrot, like a mantra. Take a look at the examples of the train of thoughts reported in the Pali canon, it is a sincere reflection that reinforces understanding by reinforcing understanding you reinforce also intention itself.
In a certain sense V&V seem to be synonymous.
Note. Looking at the combination vitakka + vicāra in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing: just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous), and that one has to take them as; one expression, like jānāti passati, without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general. The explains of Commentators are mostly of an edifying nature and based more on popular etymology than on natural psychological grounds.
https://suttacentral.net/define/vitakka

A problem with that is the suttas which treat them as separate things, as Venerable Dhammanando pointed out on SuttaCentral recently to me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:00 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm

Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.
Hi Alex,

The point is simply that when I say "I intended to kill you" and "I thought to kill you" that can be seen as saying the same thing: it is rare to have an intention and not verbalize it and it is rare that a thought that feels yours doesn't have an intention underneath. But when you say thinking and pondering, that means that a train of thoughts is there, since you cannot reflect and explore questions and teachings without using words, imagination, memories, names. That doesn't mean that there are no intentions, quite the contrary, but there's much more.
In a way this is close to what occurs in vipassana meditation and their vipassana Jhāna. I'm not sure about your point regarding it being rare to have an intention and not "verbalise it" (although not everyone thinks in terms of verbal thoughts). In my life I see myself intending all the time without thinking it out. I can also think and ponder without ever having a verbal thought go through my mind.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by AlexBrains92 »

nirodh27 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:00 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:31 pm

Since saṅkappa is a synonym for v&v, it seems to me then that v&v are closer to intentions rather than simply “thinking verbally and pondering”. As my example shows, someone can think and ponder about renunciation all day. That doesn’t mean they will enter Jhana, or have Right Intention.
Sankappa is often translated as 'thought' too.
Hi Alex,

The point is simply that when I say "I intended to kill you" and "I thought to kill you" that can be seen as saying the same thing: it is rare to have an intention and not verbalize it and it is rare that a thought that feels yours doesn't have an intention underneath. But when you say thinking and pondering, that means that a train of thoughts is there, since you cannot reflect and explore questions and teachings without using words, imagination, memories, names. That doesn't mean that there are no intentions, quite the contrary, but there's much more.
Yes, I agree.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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