Vitakka & Vicāra

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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

asahi wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:50 pm Anapanasati does help to establish the mind in composure to get ready for 4 Satipatthana.
Hi Asahi,

Sutta quotation for this? Because Anapasati in SN54.12 is said to be used for the distruction of the taints (not an easy or introductory goal) or for noble dwelling for Arahants and the Buddha, so the Buddha chosen meditation in retreat, not an ancillary practice to get ready.
‘Mendicants, if wanderers who follow another path were to ask you: “Reverends, what was the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence?” You should answer them like this: “Reverends, the ascetic Gotama’s usual meditation during the rainy season residence was immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.”

In this regard: mindful, I breathe in. Mindful, I breathe out.

When breathing in heavily I know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily I know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ …

I know: “I’ll breathe in observing letting go.” I know: “I’ll breathe out observing letting go.”

For if anything should be rightly called “the meditation of a noble one”, or else “the meditation of a Brahmā”, or else “the meditation of a realized one”, it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.
The same sutta asks to do anapanasati after the giving up of the five hindrances. Again, not something that you can do without extensive work into Satipatthana, the understanding and establishment of the teachings into memory that allows the give up of the five hindrances. This is clearly an after-jhanic practice.
Those who are trainee mendicants … meditate after giving up the five hindrances.
For those mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring for the supreme sanctuary—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to the ending of defilements.

For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.

For if anything should be rightly called “the meditation of a noble one”, or else “the meditation of a Brahmā”, or else “the meditation of a realized one”, it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.12/en/suj ... ript=latin

Actually, I was not aware of the full depth of 54.12, it is very very clear and have an important role that convinces me even more of the fact that Anapanasati is advanced practice, to be done when the pleasure of renunciation is there. I must really thank you very much. :bow:
asahi
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by asahi »

I suppose there are three things involves . One is of breathing method two is of mindfulness or right sati and three is of concentration in total composure which is right samadhi achieved . With that liberation is possible . Breathing method alone doesnt ends suffering .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:13 pm
“Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May I give up memories and thoughts of the lay life.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.” - SN 54.8

🤷🏻‍♂️
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by frank k »

I don't know the full context of your conversation, as cswr is on my blocked list,
but the key point is V&V are vaci-sankhāra in an oral tradition.
Nonverbal images, are citta-sankhāra. most notably sañña (perceptions arising through 6 doors).
citta-sankhara are subverbal, nonverbal, they exist in all 4 jhānas and the first 3 formless attainments.
The Buddha's 4 jhānas are not a disembodied frozen mental stupor.
First jhāna allows for verbal mental talk in investigating the four noble truths, the remaining jhānas and perception formless attainments the investigation is done with subverbal mental processing.

citta sankhara can be contained within vaci-sankhara,
but vaci sankhara are not part of citta sankhara.
∴ vitakka are not nonverbal images.

Again, in an oral tradition, people think, speak out loud their VERBAL lingusistic thoughts to other people because it's a COMMUNICABLE language.
subverbal nonverbal mental imagery, citta sankhara, are not not transmittable via vocalizing and hearing and decoding verbalized speech in a COMMUNICABLE language.

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:22 pm You still seem stuck on the idea that everyone thinks in terms of "The elephant is grey" when they think of a grey elephant. You might think your thoughts via words, but not everyone does. Some people think wholly in terms of verbal thoughts. Others it's a mix of both, and for others too it's pure imagery.
We have plenty of examples of the Buddha that use verbalization first person during meditation. For those that have pure imagery, they can still do the same thing without verbalization, and they will use verbalization to describe the same process. But the Suttas speaks like verbalization is the norm and they cannot avoid to distinguish between intentions (that are behind every thought) and the act of thinking that is represented by Vitakka&Vicara (that is something that is more complex, reasoned and it is verbal or it is translated as verbal if needed for those that doesn't verbalize).
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.
Just as the thought would occur to a man walking quickly, 'Why am I walking quickly? Why don't I walk slowly?' So he walks slowly. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I walking slowly? Why don't I stand?' So he stands. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I standing? Why don't I sit down?' So he sits down. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I sitting? Why don't I lie down?' So he lies down.
Those are examples of first-person verbalization in the Vitakkasanthana Sutta. If that is done by some without verbalization or with verbalization that is not visible/noted in the conscious part of the brain, that doesn't change that the suttas describe those things as being verbal and do examples as them being verbal because it is taken as the norm. That means that in the nature of first jhana this verbalization (which is not parroting without a sincere intention as Jankala have brilliantly explained) have its place, and it is not true that "thoughts are long gone" in first Jhana as is said, for example, from Sujato. This act of Vitakka&Vicara is well-described in the suttas as a form of verbalization and thought-analysis and not as a "simpler" intention that is something more basic. Vitakka&Vicara is what distinguish an elephant from a human being, the capacity to explore, examine, sift, ponder about a topic. The suttas presents and describe it as internal verbalization, even when you understand "This is Dukkha" and "This is the end of Dukkha".
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frank k
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by frank k »

I've updated a previous msg on this thread to include examples for anapana
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tween.html
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:28 am
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:17 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:01 pm 1) Are vitakka-vicāra verbal train of thoughts?
They are presented as verbal train of thoughts in the suttas and in every other book of self-help and religious help of humanity for obvious reasons and are verbal for those that thinks verbal, but the most important thing is define if they are intellectual reflection, sift, ponderation about a topic (like the drawbacks, or renunciation) or not. This reflection is needed, but costly in terms of energy, that is why in second jhana, when you feel safe and reinforced enough (there's a sutta that suggests not to try second jhana too early because of that, you need the renunciation to be strenghtened and reinforced) you abandon that reflection since is not useful anymore because you're set on renunciation and Dhamma.

This is the crucial thing.
Hi Nirodh27

Can you say something about how this would apply to anapana? Thanks.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:38 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:13 pm
“Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May I give up memories and thoughts of the lay life.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.” - SN 54.8

🤷🏻‍♂️
SN54.8 Seems a big poutpourri of stock phrases, but having this sincere wish (not simply an exclamation!) seems fairly advanced, from second to third path, it is already a person that favors renunciation towards sensuality to the point that he wants to abandon even memories about his former dusty life.
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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

frank k wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:25 pm
Thank you for your posts here, very useful stuff.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:42 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:38 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:13 pm
“Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May I give up memories and thoughts of the lay life.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.” - SN 54.8

🤷🏻‍♂️
SN54.8 Seems a big poutpourri of stock phrases, but having this sincere wish (not simply an exclamation!) seems fairly advanced, from second to third path, it is already a person that favors renunciation towards sensuality to the point that he wants to abandon even memories about his former dusty life.
That’s a rather weak argument.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:05 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:42 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:38 pm

“Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘May I give up memories and thoughts of the lay life.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.” - SN 54.8

🤷🏻‍♂️
SN54.8 Seems a big poutpourri of stock phrases, but having this sincere wish (not simply an exclamation!) seems fairly advanced, from second to third path, it is already a person that favors renunciation towards sensuality to the point that he wants to abandon even memories about his former dusty life.
That’s a rather weak argument.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:13 pm ... convinces me even more of the fact that Anapanasati is advanced practice, to be done when the pleasure of renunciation is there...
Interesting. Advanced how? Sotapanna-only? How to know when to start with anapanasati. How does a practitioner know when it is time to sit down, establish mindfulness to the fore and stay mindful while following the breathing.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:05 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:42 pm

SN54.8 Seems a big poutpourri of stock phrases, but having this sincere wish (not simply an exclamation!) seems fairly advanced, from second to third path, it is already a person that favors renunciation towards sensuality to the point that he wants to abandon even memories about his former dusty life.
That’s a rather weak argument.
🤷🏻‍♂️
Ānāpānasati is a means to develop the awakening factors. To develop the awakening factors, you have to abandon the hindrances. This is what ānāpānasati does. It removes the last traces of the hindrances. Before you begin it though the big hindrances of sensual desire and ill-will should be sufficiently dimmed through virtue, sense-restraint and, if needed, through meditations such as foulness or metta.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:05 pm Ānāpānasati is a means to develop the awakening factors. To develop the awakening factors, you have to abandon the hindrances. This is what ānāpānasati does. It removes the last traces of the hindrances. Before you begin it though the big hindrances of sensual desire and ill-will should be sufficiently dimmed through virtue, sense-restraint and, if needed, through meditations such as foulness or metta.
Perhaps those of us not too advanced in the practice can still develop sati and samadhi somehow. But if not by practising anapanasati... I don't know how.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:58 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:13 pm ... convinces me even more of the fact that Anapanasati is advanced practice, to be done when the pleasure of renunciation is there...
Interesting. Advanced how? Sotapanna-only? How to know when to start with anapanasati. How does a practitioner know when it is time to sit down, establish mindfulness to the fore and stay mindful while following the breathing.
Hi Mjaviem,

I think that is a question that requires more than some speculation so take this for what it is, speculation. I think that I will have to dig on it more in the near future, since it is very insteresting indeed. As I've said I have the idea that Anapanasati is an advanced practice that is aimed as giving pleasant dwellings to Arahants and do the "final touch" to those that are already capable of removing the hindrances as 54.12 say and so for those people that knows the pleasure of renunciaton (jhana). But to say something definitive about sotapanna I should have to pass all occurrences of anapanasati with suttacentral to make some conclusions that can be shared in a confident way. Sorry to disappoint you too :smile:

One thing that I note btw is that you mix Satipatthana (in which you put sati=memory of the teachings in prominence/to the fore) and Anapanasati. They are not the same thing. Satipatthana's goal is to reinforce convinction and memory/retention of the teachings especially impermanence and it is not limited to a breath exercise. They share many things, but they are different nonethless and before trying to mix them, we should be clearly aware of what differentiates them too.
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

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mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:48 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:05 pm Ānāpānasati is a means to develop the awakening factors. To develop the awakening factors, you have to abandon the hindrances. This is what ānāpānasati does. It removes the last traces of the hindrances. Before you begin it though the big hindrances of sensual desire and ill-will should be sufficiently dimmed through virtue, sense-restraint and, if needed, through meditations such as foulness or metta.
Perhaps those of us not too advanced in the practice can still develop sati and samadhi somehow. But if not by practising anapanasati... I don't know how.
Sense-restraint, element meditation, body part meditation, foulness.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Vitakka & Vicāra

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:05 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:05 pm

That’s a rather weak argument.
🤷🏻‍♂️
Ānāpānasati is a means to develop the awakening factors. To develop the awakening factors, you have to abandon the hindrances. This is what ānāpānasati does. It removes the last traces of the hindrances. Before you begin it though the big hindrances of sensual desire and ill-will should be sufficiently dimmed through virtue, sense-restraint and, if needed, through meditations such as foulness or metta.
Thank you for your opinion. I hope someday to see that paired with extensive sutta quotes and with 54.12 (in which anapanasati is suggested to people that have no hindrances and have to remove the taints or Buddhas) appropriately considered as well.
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