The precepts and covert medication

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:26 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:14 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:49 pm

Other things being equal, more difficult than other busy and challenging professions? I'd like to see the reasoning behind that.
Sadly, I don’t think you can Sam.
I might be able to if you present a cogent case.

But you seem to rely on an anecdote that you read somewhere, followed by an unwarranted and unqualified extrapolation of this to the entire medical profession.

So your sadness is justified in this case - I can't see it.

What I do see, though, is a number of practitioners and meditators who seem to have attained to levels of peace commensurate with their business and stress levels, despite being in or recently retired from medicine.
Not sure what you mean by commensurate?
Also I have experienced this similar treatment when taking my wife in to emergency with heart rate at 220bpm.
The medical industry does not seem interested in individual patient care anymore and have transitioned to a broader collective care. Where the apparent health of the collective trumps that of the patient.
Any medical staff speaking against these new policies are removed.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:37 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:26 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:14 pm

Sadly, I don’t think you can Sam.
I might be able to if you present a cogent case.

But you seem to rely on an anecdote that you read somewhere, followed by an unwarranted and unqualified extrapolation of this to the entire medical profession.

So your sadness is justified in this case - I can't see it.

What I do see, though, is a number of practitioners and meditators who seem to have attained to levels of peace commensurate with their business and stress levels, despite being in or recently retired from medicine.
Not sure what you mean by commensurate?
"In proportion to". The dictionary is your friend. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... mmensurate
Also I have experienced this similar treatment when taking my wife in to emergency with heart rate at 220bpm.
So now your case about the entire medical profession is based upon an anecdote you read somewhere, plus something you claim to have witnessed? Do you have anything else?
The medical industry does not seem interested in individual patient care anymore and have transitioned to a broader collective care. Where the apparent health of the collective trumps that of the patient.
Any medical staff speaking against these new policies are removed.
My understanding is that different health professionals focus on different things; some on individual treatment and care, and some on collective issues of recording, prevention, procurement, etc. It's certainly not the case that focus on the individual is no longer found. I see it all the time. So your extrapolation is wrong.

And we have wandered away from the issue of whether it is difficult to attain peace in the medical industry. Someone who plans, monitors, or procures equipment for public health at the highest level might be able to attain peace, compared to someone with a similar job in other sectors.

Anyone might think that you don't really want to make a sensible point about peace resulting from practice, but want to shoe-horn in a political viewpoint, so...

:focus: :pig:
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:29 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:37 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:26 pm

I might be able to if you present a cogent case.

But you seem to rely on an anecdote that you read somewhere, followed by an unwarranted and unqualified extrapolation of this to the entire medical profession.

So your sadness is justified in this case - I can't see it.

What I do see, though, is a number of practitioners and meditators who seem to have attained to levels of peace commensurate with their business and stress levels, despite being in or recently retired from medicine.
Not sure what you mean by commensurate?
"In proportion to". The dictionary is your friend. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... mmensurate
Also I have experienced this similar treatment when taking my wife in to emergency with heart rate at 220bpm.
So now your case about the entire medical profession is based upon an anecdote you read somewhere, plus something you claim to have witnessed? Do you have anything else?
The medical industry does not seem interested in individual patient care anymore and have transitioned to a broader collective care. Where the apparent health of the collective trumps that of the patient.
Any medical staff speaking against these new policies are removed.
My understanding is that different health professionals focus on different things; some on individual treatment and care, and some on collective issues of recording, prevention, procurement, etc. It's certainly not the case that focus on the individual is no longer found. I see it all the time. So your extrapolation is wrong.

And we have wandered away from the issue of whether it is difficult to attain peace in the medical industry. Someone who plans, monitors, or procures equipment for public health at the highest level might be able to attain peace, compared to someone with a similar job in other sectors.

Anyone might think that you don't really want to make a sensible point about peace resulting from practice, but want to shoe-horn in a political viewpoint, so...

:focus: :pig:
Basically the medical industry at current is not a peaceful environment to earn a livelihood.
I hope the OP can work to change this industry but in the immediate time, I’d say this is going to be an uphill battle.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:29 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:37 pm
Not sure what you mean by commensurate?
"In proportion to". The dictionary is your friend. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... mmensurate
Also I have experienced this similar treatment when taking my wife in to emergency with heart rate at 220bpm.
So now your case about the entire medical profession is based upon an anecdote you read somewhere, plus something you claim to have witnessed? Do you have anything else?
The medical industry does not seem interested in individual patient care anymore and have transitioned to a broader collective care. Where the apparent health of the collective trumps that of the patient.
Any medical staff speaking against these new policies are removed.
My understanding is that different health professionals focus on different things; some on individual treatment and care, and some on collective issues of recording, prevention, procurement, etc. It's certainly not the case that focus on the individual is no longer found. I see it all the time. So your extrapolation is wrong.

And we have wandered away from the issue of whether it is difficult to attain peace in the medical industry. Someone who plans, monitors, or procures equipment for public health at the highest level might be able to attain peace, compared to someone with a similar job in other sectors.

Anyone might think that you don't really want to make a sensible point about peace resulting from practice, but want to shoe-horn in a political viewpoint, so...

:focus: :pig:
Basically the medical industry at current is not a peaceful environment to earn a livelihood.
I hope the OP can work to change this industry but in the immediate time, I’d say this is going to be an uphill battle.
And basically the same applies to many professions: the law, education, finance, engineering, etc. There's a lot of hard work, stress, and uncertainty in lots of workplaces. There's nothing special about medicine in this respect, and much that is potentially very valuable from a Dhammic perspective in the cultivation of care and the alleviation of suffering.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:29 pm

"In proportion to". The dictionary is your friend. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... mmensurate



So now your case about the entire medical profession is based upon an anecdote you read somewhere, plus something you claim to have witnessed? Do you have anything else?



My understanding is that different health professionals focus on different things; some on individual treatment and care, and some on collective issues of recording, prevention, procurement, etc. It's certainly not the case that focus on the individual is no longer found. I see it all the time. So your extrapolation is wrong.

And we have wandered away from the issue of whether it is difficult to attain peace in the medical industry. Someone who plans, monitors, or procures equipment for public health at the highest level might be able to attain peace, compared to someone with a similar job in other sectors.

Anyone might think that you don't really want to make a sensible point about peace resulting from practice, but want to shoe-horn in a political viewpoint, so...

:focus: :pig:
Basically the medical industry at current is not a peaceful environment to earn a livelihood.
I hope the OP can work to change this industry but in the immediate time, I’d say this is going to be an uphill battle.
And basically the same applies to many professions: the law, education, finance, engineering, etc. There's a lot of hard work, stress, and uncertainty in lots of workplaces. There's nothing special about medicine in this respect, and much that is potentially very valuable from a Dhammic perspective in the cultivation of care and the alleviation of suffering.
Yes, all employment which requires certification or licensing is a career where the collective can leverage the individual. If you speak against the collective you face termination. This works for individuals who share the collectives policies but does not work for those who disagree.
Again I wish the OP the best of success, and hope they find peace within this industry or can be a radiating light within this dark industry.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:54 pm Yes, all employment which requires certification or licensing is a career where the collective can leverage the individual.
Well, that's rather the point of certification or licensing, isn't it? You get a ticket to practice according to their rules, and if you don't like it, you can always decide to not play.
If you speak against the collective you face termination.
That depends on what you say and how you say it. The UK and other European countries have hundreds of medical professionals who have made media careers out of criticising medical orthodoxy, and kept their jobs. But again, if you don't want to accept professional standards as defined by professions themselves, you don't have to train in that profession. Go and practice outside of their aegis, if you think you know better.
This works for individuals who share the collectives policies but does not work for those who disagree.
As per above, that's precisely what should happen. If you want the benefits of the collective, then it's not unreasonable to be asked to play by their rules. Just as on, erm, forums for discussing Theravada Buddhism. If someone wants the benefits of a platform where knowledgeable and interested people gather, then they agree to abide by the rules.

But again, this has little to do with attaining peace while holding down a job, so :focus: and stop trying to make political points about medicine. Because that's one of the rules here, and you probably don't want to "face termination", as you put it.
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:14 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:54 pm Yes, all employment which requires certification or licensing is a career where the collective can leverage the individual.
Well, that's rather the point of certification or licensing, isn't it? You get a ticket to practice according to their rules, and if you don't like it, you can always decide to not play.
If you speak against the collective you face termination.
That depends on what you say and how you say it. The UK and other European countries have hundreds of medical professionals who have made media careers out of criticising medical orthodoxy, and kept their jobs. But again, if you don't want to accept professional standards as defined by professions themselves, you don't have to train in that profession. Go and practice outside of their aegis, if you think you know better.
This works for individuals who share the collectives policies but does not work for those who disagree.
As per above, that's precisely what should happen. If you want the benefits of the collective, then it's not unreasonable to be asked to play by their rules. Just as on, erm, forums for discussing Theravada Buddhism. If someone wants the benefits of a platform where knowledgeable and interested people gather, then they agree to abide by the rules.

But again, this has little to do with attaining peace while holding down a job, so :focus: and stop trying to make political points about medicine. Because that's one of the rules here, and you probably don't want to "face termination", as you put it.
If you contract and invest in an education under certain terms, and then the industry changes the terms of your agreement they should reimburse you for breach of contract. This would mitigate the harm or damages. Failure to do this results in leveraging or holding individuals hostage. To simply leave is not an option free from harm and could be financially devastating for some.
As we see from the OP they are being forced(I use this word because if they refuse they will most likely be terminated) to administer medications knowingly against the will of patients in a way that is deceptive or sneaky.
It bothers this individual and they have an unclear conscience. If there was freedom to speak your concerns without risk of loss of employment or licensing, etc... then it might be a healthier work environment.
A Drs is to do no harm, they are trained licences professionals and should have the credibility to speak freely if something is unethical.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:32 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:14 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:54 pm Yes, all employment which requires certification or licensing is a career where the collective can leverage the individual.
Well, that's rather the point of certification or licensing, isn't it? You get a ticket to practice according to their rules, and if you don't like it, you can always decide to not play.
If you speak against the collective you face termination.
That depends on what you say and how you say it. The UK and other European countries have hundreds of medical professionals who have made media careers out of criticising medical orthodoxy, and kept their jobs. But again, if you don't want to accept professional standards as defined by professions themselves, you don't have to train in that profession. Go and practice outside of their aegis, if you think you know better.
This works for individuals who share the collectives policies but does not work for those who disagree.
As per above, that's precisely what should happen. If you want the benefits of the collective, then it's not unreasonable to be asked to play by their rules. Just as on, erm, forums for discussing Theravada Buddhism. If someone wants the benefits of a platform where knowledgeable and interested people gather, then they agree to abide by the rules.

But again, this has little to do with attaining peace while holding down a job, so :focus: and stop trying to make political points about medicine. Because that's one of the rules here, and you probably don't want to "face termination", as you put it.
If you contract and invest in an education under certain terms, and then the industry changes the terms of your agreement they should reimburse you for breach of contract. This would mitigate the harm or damages. Failure to do this results in leveraging or holding individuals hostage. To simply leave is not an option free from harm and could be financially devastating for some.
Sure. If work practices change to such an extent that your contract is no longer valid, then contractual changes are required for those who are not free to leave. The salient question (which I am sure lawyers are salivating over) is whether one party has invalidated the contract.
As we see from the OP they are being forced(I use this word because if they refuse they will most likely be terminated) to administer medications knowingly against the will of patients in a way that is deceptive or sneaky.
That's an entirely different scenario from "being terminated" by a profession. They are studying a course. If they find something in an area of medicine they feel uneasy about, they are advised to avoid that area of medicine if and when they complete their training. The same way that medical professionals here in the UK can register a "conscientious objection" to certain medical procedures even if they want to remain in the profession. Better still, people can check before signing up to a course about what the requirements of the course and the profession are. That's very different from a change to an existing contract. It's like veterinarians objecting to euthanising animals. None of them need to, because they could easily find out if they are required to euthanise animals during or - preferably - before training.
It bothers this individual and they have an unclear conscience. If there was freedom to speak your concerns without risk of loss of employment or licensing, etc... then it might be a healthier work environment.
A Drs is to do no harm, they are trained licences professionals and should have the credibility to speak freely if something is unethical.
Yes, it's better if people don't go into an area of work that doesn't square with their conscience, and it appears that the OP doesn't have to.

None of this really supports your point that medicine is a "dark industry" in which people find it more "difficult to attain peace" than in comparable jobs.
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Radix »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:39 pmBasically the medical industry at current is not a peaceful environment to earn a livelihood.
Depends on the type of person one is.
Those who enjoy ruling over the lives of others and have no sense of responsibility for how things work out for those others can do well in medicine, as well as in many other jobs.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 pmThere's nothing special about medicine in this respect, and much that is potentially very valuable from a Dhammic perspective in the cultivation of care and the alleviation of suffering.
Medcine is not in the business (yes, it's a business) of alleviating suffering. Medicine isn't Dhamma. Medicine is primarily only in the business of reducing pain.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:46 pmThere's nothing special about medicine in this respect, and much that is potentially very valuable from a Dhammic perspective in the cultivation of care and the alleviation of suffering.
Medcine is not in the business (yes, it's a business) of alleviating suffering. Medicine isn't Dhamma. Medicine is primarily only in the business of reducing pain.
I always thought that pain was part of suffering, but perhaps I've been reading it wrongly. :thinking:
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:20 pm
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:39 pmBasically the medical industry at current is not a peaceful environment to earn a livelihood.
Depends on the type of person one is.
Those who enjoy ruling over the lives of others and have no sense of responsibility for how things work out for those others can do well in medicine, as well as in many other jobs.
Leveraging others is not really peaceful though.
The mind of the medical worker is spinning.
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:30 pmI always thought that pain was part of suffering, but perhaps I've been reading it wrongly.
What a strange thing to say for someone who loves to shoot people down with the two arrows teaching.

One can be without pain and still suffer, and one can be in pain but not suffer. The only way to overcome suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path, but medicine doesn't teach it, so medicine cannot reduce suffering.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:30 pmI always thought that pain was part of suffering, but perhaps I've been reading it wrongly.
What a strange thing to say for someone who loves to shoot people down with the two arrows teaching.
I'm aware of it, I've referred to it here on DW, but I don't "shoot people down with it". That's a ridiculous thing to say.
One can be without pain and still suffer, and one can be in pain but not suffer. The only way to overcome suffering is the Noble Eightfold Path, but medicine doesn't teach it, so medicine cannot reduce suffering.
I was thinking of SN 45.165:
“Mendicants, there are these three forms of suffering.
“Tisso imā, bhikkhave, dukkhatā.
What three?
Katamā tisso?
The suffering inherent in painful feeling; the suffering inherent in conditions; and the suffering inherent in perishing.
Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā—
These are the three forms of suffering.
imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso dukkhatā.

The noble eightfold path should be developed for the direct knowledge, complete understanding, finishing, and giving up of these three forms of suffering.”
Imāsaṁ kho, bhikkhave, tissannaṁ dukkhatānaṁ abhiññāya pariññāya parikkhayāya pahānāya …pe… ayaṁ ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhāvetabbo”ti.
There is probably a scholarly linguistic debate to be had about the compound dukkhadukkhatā and whether it means the suffering arising from pain, or the suffering inherent in pain. Sujato clearly differs from Bhikkhu Bodhi on this, who thinks it is suffering due to physical pain. But I see this as recognising that pain is one of the ways in which existence is unsatisfactory, the other two being the decline and change of happiness, and its conditioned and therefore uncontrollable nature.

And, of course, there is the definition with the wonderful compound:
Sokaparidevadukkhadomanass’upayasapi dukkha,
sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are dukkha
which, if it is to avoid a pointless repetition, means that pain is dukkha.

In any case, even if
One can be without pain and still suffer, and one can be in pain but not suffer
the vast majority of people in pain do suffer, and so medicine, in alleviating pain, thereby alleviates the suffering which would otherwise arise
User avatar
Radix
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: The precepts and covert medication

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:02 pmI'm aware of it, I've referred to it here on DW, but I don't "shoot people down with it". That's a ridiculous thing to say.
It's standard religious/spiritual practice to bring up the two arrows teaching precisely when a person is expressing doubt about the religion/spirituality or when they have difficulty taking it for granted. In such situations, the two arrows teaching functions as a thought-terminating cliche.

One can be without pain and still suffer, and one can be in pain but not suffer
the vast majority of people in pain do suffer, and so medicine, in alleviating pain, thereby alleviates the suffering which would otherwise arise
"Right Medical Treatment" isn't part of the Noble Eightfold Path.

If a person while undergoing a medical treatment and afterwards still has the same wrong views as before the medical treatment, then the medical treatment did nothing to "alleviate their suffering". Suffering cannot be overcome while holding wrong views, whether one is in pain or not.

If medicine could in fact alleviate suffering (as in: _causally_ alleviate suffering, functioning as the cause for the cessation of suffering), then the Buddha's teachings would be in vain.

What usually happens when a person receives medical treatment that alleviates their pain is this: the pain is reduced while the person retains all their wrong views (and other wrong factors, ie. wrong effort, wrong livelihood, wrong concentration, etc.). It's the combination of physical pain and wrong factors (wrong in terms of the Path) that makes for that characteristically explosive combination that we usually call "suffering" and ascribe only to the physical pain. To use an image, if the physical pain is the fire, and wrong factors the dynamite, the problem of suffering isn't solved for as long as you're walking around with dynamite, even it if it seems safe enough to do so with no fire around.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
Post Reply