Moral Realism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Moral Realism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by cappuccino »

The slightest of all the results coming from X is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to Y.


Vipaka Sutta: Results

:candle:
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mjaviem
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Dhamma is not concerned with morality. The teaching is about not doing harm, not having unwholesome intentions. What should or shouldn't doesn't matter.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
dharmacorps
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by dharmacorps »

What I like about the Buddha is he bypassed such discussions. He coached moral conduct in tangible terms of what is skillful and leads to one's long term welfare and happiness, and what is unskillful and leads the other direction.
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma?
In this Dhamma, there is kamma and its fruit.

It is done and experienced subjectively, but as a law it is objective.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by justindesilva »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:14 pm What I like about the Buddha is he bypassed such discussions. He coached moral conduct in tangible terms of what is skillful and leads to one's long term welfare and happiness, and what is unskillful and leads the other direction.
In the catholic school I studied , we had a moral science class, when catholics had their
Religion . There the rev in charge taught us who a gentleman is and that is that one who inflicts pain on others is not a gentleman and alternately "a gentleman is one who does not inflict pain physically or mentally on others",
A great lesson common to all of all religions.
asahi
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?

Surely it is not a goal in itself . It does matter for an ordinary person to function and remain sane and healthy . The world will be in chaos without it . If one is aspiring for liberation there is a way to bypass it .
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by justindesilva »

asahi wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?

Surely it is not a goal in itself . It does matter for an ordinary person to function and remain sane and healthy . The world will be in chaos without it . If one is aspiring for liberation there is a way to bypass it .
Morality is achieved by sila. One who observes five precepts is moral in lay society, Furthering this sila is attasila , dasasila, and then sila of a bikku . It all needs restrain and developing pragna .
A perfectionist in sila or morality could bean arya. Lord budda was the highest in morals, with arhants added to it.
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Pondera
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Morality is neither objective nor subjective. It is functional. Long ago the purpose of a king was to punish thieves, liars, adulterers, and killers. The punishments were VERY objective. Cut off a hand, a tongue, a wiener, a head. Then see if the person does it again.

I personally believe we will be judged according to our behaviour in this life. By what? I do not truly know. But I personally believe that like the punishments of kings before us, our “reward” for ill will, harm, greed, and delusion will be swift and the punishment will fit the crime.

Maybe the karma police? 🤷 not God. But likely a higher self. Possibly it is within Mara’s domain. Wouldn’t it be “funny” if Mara not only seduced beings into doing wrong, but also punished them at the end of their lives with rebirth as a ghost, an animal, or a hell being? My opinion of existence, having lived in it for 40 years, is that it is relentlessly harsh and unforgiving. Start to cultivate good qualities now, before it is too late. And even then who knows what one will reap in the end.

If the Path is as Noble as one might believe, a certain assurance must arise in practitioners that the possibility of a bad rebirth has been ended. I cannot think of a working spiritual system which would not include such self assurance.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Since it is laid down in words which are visible it is objective. But words neither are or represent a "reality" (which is merely a mental fabrication) nor do words matter independent of beliefs.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by justindesilva »

SteRo wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:00 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Since it is laid down in words which are visible it is objective. But words neither are or represent a "reality" (which is merely a mental fabrication) nor do words matter independent of beliefs.
The 1st verse of Dammapada, Mano pubbangama damma, manosetta manomaya , manasa se paduttena, basativa karotiva explains the subjectivity and objectivity of mind and damma.
The mind is foremost and the result of good and bad deeds of damma is followed as the cart folliws the ox.
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Since it’s always unwise to choose unwholesome actions, how else would you define a wise decision as none other than wholesome?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tl21G3lVl wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:56 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Since it’s always unwise to choose unwholesome actions, how else would you define a wise decision as none other than wholesome?
This is less about definitions and more about ontology. Are what is wholesome or unwholesome objective features of the world or are they subjective?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:15 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:43 pm Is morality objective in the Dhamma? Is it an external reality? Does it matter?
Dhamma is not concerned with morality. The teaching is about not doing harm, not having unwholesome intentions. What should or shouldn't doesn't matter.
The Buddha didn’t care about right or wrong actions?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Moral Realism

Post by Ceisiwr »

It seems to me that if the Dhamma accepts moral realism, then dhammas in turn really exist.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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