Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

[auto]

I doubt 5 senses go off. It is the sense-organ consciousness(sakkaya/clinging aggregates) what ceases after 8th state.

I’m not sure where you get this from. There is no way a stream enterer can reach the sannavedayitanirodha.

Wasn't commenting on stream entry, but on your claim about senses going off at 1st jhana. I can see i am information deprived.
Personal witness(kāyasakkhī) seem to be experiencing jhana and realizes cessation(without relying on the noble path, guess based on how liberated both ways comes about). Could hint it is mundane person if to read the liberated both ways is (immaterial) jhana + noble path(in contrast making this case to be a noble person).

(3) he first experiences the experience of jhána and
afterwards realizes cessation, Nibbána, thus he is a body witness;
..
(4) He is liberated in both ways, by
immaterial jhána and the noble path, thus he is both-ways liberated.

any way my guesses are derived from that there is concentration based on sense organ consciousness and concentration based on heart mind.
.

Even the buddha when he was still a bodhisatta, he just knew the 1st jhana.

not according to the suttas, dn17 for example.
in his past life he knew 4 jhana.

Then King Mahāsudassana thought,
..
Then he entered the great foyer and sat on the golden couch. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected were stilled, he entered and remained in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
...

if its non-returner then he would have had 5 fetters already removed.. so for now i don't get your logic,

This statement is for non returner.

[Joe.c]

Wasn't commenting on stream entry, but on your claim about senses going off at 1st jhana. I can see i am information deprived.

I see, now reread your previous reply it make senses. Yes only stream enterer or once returner can enter samma samadhi. Once they are able to maintain jhana in daily life for 24/7 and get the fruit of non returner.

They can declare that they will not return to human world ever.

But an outsider who has developed jhana is also possible to become non returner or an arahant with hearing the dhamma,

just look at SN 22.59, those outsiders with jhana (with wrong view) become arahant upon hearing true dhamma from Buddha.

Personal witness(kāyasakkhī) seem to be experiencing jhana and realizes cessation(without relying on the noble path, guess based on how liberated both ways comes about). Could hint it is mundane person if to read the liberated both ways is (immaterial) jhana + noble path(in contrast making this case to be a noble person).

Just refer to MN 70 kitagiri for the definition. Btw, you don't need to know that much. Once just needs to start practice the path gradually to reach the final destination.

Unfortunately people want to get to Nibbana Asap but never develop the faculties. It is just like blind man walking randomly.

N8FP is path with multiple steps.

First step is hearing true dhamma, then practice precepts.

Upon perfecting those, then only then can go develop sati/samadhi (including senses restraint). By then, one can abandon the precepts because the precepts has become automatic (fully developed)

And so on.

(3) he first experiences the experience of jhána and
afterwards realizes cessation, Nibbána, thus he is a body witness;
..
(4) He is liberated in both ways, by
immaterial jhána and the noble path, thus he is both-ways liberated.

Just drop the commentaries from visuddhimagga or any commentaries.

The sutta is more than enough to practice the whole life. It may not even be enough because human life right now is only 80 years old. It is indeed too short to perfecting the faculties.

any way my guesses are derived from that there is concentration based on sense organ consciousness and concentration based on heart mind.

.
Im not sure where you get this information. There are only 6 vinnana (5 senses and mind). You drop 5, then drop last one. It is gradual practice. Can't drop all six at the same time.

not according to the suttas, dn17 for example.
in his past life he knew 4 jhana.

This only happen when Buddha has fully awakened. Once you have fully awakened, your mind can move freely past, present or future. No boundaries. He can check his past lives, how and what has been developed and use the knowledge to verify again and again.

But unawakened mind is just not freed yet. Unawakened mind is still being bound by fetters.

if its non-returner then he would have had 5 fetters already removed.. so for now i don't get your logic,

When he is still unawakened, he was only a stream enterer or once returner.

My guess he is a once returner who lose the jhana during his previous life under Buddha Kassapa. See MN 81.

But again no one want to believe it.

Anyway path and wisdom goes together. If one says they have the wisdom that means they have fully developed the path up to that wisdom.

There is no need commentaries to support the direct personal experience wisdom/insight.

Again all this can be checked and verified in real life here and now.

Same thing with whatever say in Sutta. Everything can be verified by one who follow the path. Problem is do you have patient to stay in the path day in and day out or not until the fruit/result.

[auto]

I see, now reread your previous reply it make senses. Yes only stream enterer or once returner can enter samma samadhi. Once they are able to maintain jhana in daily life for 24/7 and get the fruit of non returner.

you are missing the point of whether the senses going off or not at attaining the jhana.

Just refer to MN 70 kitagiri for the definition.

since you said samma samadhi in the above quote, i presume you agree that the concentration personal witness does is not samma samadhi,

And what person is a personal witness?
It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, some of their defilements have come to an end.

you don't need sutta nor commentary.

Just drop the commentaries from visuddhimagga or any commentaries.

The sutta is more than enough to practice the whole life.

no more easy stream entry

It may not even be enough because human life right now is only 80 years old. It is indeed too short to perfecting the faculties.

[auto]

Im not sure where you get this information. There are only 6 vinnana (5 senses and mind). You drop 5, then drop last one. It is gradual practice. Can't drop all six at the same time.

Heart is where the fetter is.

Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.
And how does desire come up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present?
In your heart you think about and consider things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.
When you do this, desire comes up,
and you get attached to those things.
Chandajāto tehi dhammehi saṁyutto hoti.
This lust in the heart is what I call a fetter.
Etamahaṁ, bhikkhave, saṁyojanaṁ vadāmi yo cetaso sārāgo.

whereas sense-organ consciousness is sakkaya(clinging aggregates mn44),

But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.

cessation of perception and feeling is the cessation of sakkaya, i think that itself doesn't remove fetters. Hence different kind of concentration which is heart based.

[auto]

My guess he is a once returner who lose the jhana during his previous life under Buddha Kassapa. See MN 81.

But again no one want to believe it.

if he had transmigrated to pure abodes(destination of once returner) he would have not come back to this realm. Maybe it is something to do with the statement "purity" that the answer is like that..

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:
‘Purity comes from transmigration.’

But it’s not easy to find a realm that I haven’t previously transmigrated to in all this long time, except for the gods of the pure abodes.
Na kho pana so, sāriputta, saṁsāro sulabharūpo yo mayā asaṁsaritapubbo iminā dīghena addhunā, aññatra suddhāvāsehi devehi. Variant: Na kho pana so → na kho paneso (bj, sya-all)
For if I had transmigrated to the gods of the pure abodes I would not have returned to this realm again.
Suddhāvāse cāhaṁ, sāriputta, deve saṁsareyyaṁ, nayimaṁ lokaṁ punarāgaccheyyaṁ.

yep

Again all this can be checked and verified in real life here and now.

for example this sutta says if you fall asleep mindful and aware then no semen emitting during sleep.
(wouldn't you want to know what commentaries(if there is one) say about it?)

..
You sleep at ease and wake happily. You don’t have bad dreams. The deities protect you. And you don’t emit semen.
These are the five benefits of falling asleep mindful and aware.”

rejecting commentaries is self-imposed handicap, you got to practice hard anyway, that is not an excuse for dropping valuable info away.

[Joe.c]

you are missing the point of whether the senses going off or not at attaining the jhana.

Senses go off means, the mind doesn't get any control to these 5 senses anymore. The mind is free from their influences.

The complete purification occurs in 4th jhana

since you said samma samadhi in the above quote, i presume you agree that the concentration personal witness does is not samma samadhi,

And what person is a personal witness?
It’s a person who has direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. And, having seen with wisdom, some of their defilements have come to an end.

This clasiffication is for Ariya only. For outsider puthujjana, you might need to refer to other text maybe those abhidhamma.

So all ariya has samma samadhi.

no more easy stream entry

Looks like you haven't done any practice yet, because your mind is moving all over. Sorry didn't mean to be rude.

I think it is better start to practice now from easier part precepts.

As I said, Stream enterer is EASY.

if you see any Ariya, associate with them and ask them to teach. They can teach all their knowledge up to their whatever practice they have completed. Then you just need to practice till the fruit. But make sure you drop all commentaries, or suspicion etc.

Upon hearing true dhamma usually one can attain the path, but a slow learner can reach it upon practice and pondering the previous taught dhamma etc.

If one is continously in the N8FP in daily life, for sure one will get the fruit in this life.

But make sure you SEE the ariya, not just by reading the books or go self meditate only.

All ariya is the best person to associate with. They are very peaceful indeed.

It may not even be enough because human life right now is only 80 years old. It is indeed too short to perfecting the faculties.

[/quote]

This quote is for when one has become a stream enterer and needs to reach An Arahant ASAP. Not easy from one step to another step (level).

But if you can see any arahant, they can explain way simpler.

BUT I haven't seen any true arahant or even a non returner in this life. Most folks refer to commentaries which are papanca.

[Joe.c]

if he had transmigrated to pure abodes(destination of once returner) he would have not come back to this realm. Maybe it is something to do with the statement "purity" that the answer is like that..

Pure abodes (high brahma world) are only for NON returner.

ONCE returner is still in KAMA loka such as Tusita heaven or the other 6 deva realms + human.

for example this sutta says if you fall asleep mindful and aware then no semen emitting during sleep.
(wouldn't you want to know what commentaries(if there is one) say about it?)

Lol. No need commentaries. Commentaries are for people who didn't know or practice.

When you are in Jhana, The whole physical body has changed totally. No more sexual function can operate especially those 5 senses didn't affect the mind anymore. The mind is totally free especially if one has reach 4th jhana & above and able to maintain it all day long.

This is why Buddha and Arahant have different type of physical body. Their body can emit light. But again, nobody will trust me about this.

[auto]

Pure abodes (high brahma world) are only for NON returner.

ONCE returner is still in KAMA loka such as Tusita heaven or the other 6 deva realms + human.

i misread, i can see now you are saying once returner.

Senses go off means, the mind doesn't get any control to these 5 senses anymore. The mind is free from their influences.

by 5 senses you mean eye and its object or sense organ consciousness? sense organ consciousness arises dependent on eye and its object. So do you mean that consciousness gets purified/liberated or it ceases.

The complete purification occurs in 4th jhana

purification of what. From Sutta it is purified mindfulness and equanimity - upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ.

This clasiffication is for Ariya only. For outsider puthujjana, you might need to refer to other text maybe those abhidhamma.

Is nibbana realized during jhana or after you have emerged from it... Like, first experience jhana then practice for it to attain it(go beyond kama lineage).

[auto]

When you are in Jhana, The whole physical body has changed totally. No more sexual function can operate especially those 5 senses didn't affect the mind anymore. The mind is totally free especially if one has reach 4th jhana & above and able to maintain it all day long.

it's unclear what you mean by 5 senses not affecting the mind, see post before. Also, you say sexual function? as function you mean kiriya, in contrast to kamma and vipaka?

It should be understood that both
Kamma and Vipàka are purely mental. The fourth type of
consciousness is called Kiriya which, for want of a better
term, is rendered by “karmically ineffective”, “inoperative”
or “functional”.
..
Here Kiriya is used in the sense of ineffective action.
Kamma is causally effective. Kiriya is causally ineffective.
Good deeds of Buddhas and Arahants are called Kiriya
because Kamma is not accumulated by them as they have
gone beyond both good and evil.
In Abhidhamma Vipàka and Kiriya are collectively
called Abyàkata (Indeterminate) that which does not manifest itself in the way of an effect. The former is Abyàkata,
because it is an effect in itself, the latter, because it does
not produce an effect.

It seem you mean 'no function' as something not possible to do, whereas in case of how kiriya is being rendered, it means not producing an effect.

[Joe.c]

by 5 senses you mean eye and its object or sense organ consciousness? sense organ consciousness arises dependent on eye and its object. So do you mean that consciousness gets purified/liberated or it ceases.

hm.. This is probably why it is difficult to understand properly when one try to write about Sutta. It is easier to converse face to face to prevent the mind move all over the place.

When one has developed Satipatthana and result in developed Jhana (samma samadhi). Their attention (manasikara) has been taken off from 5 senses experience (eye, ear, tongue, nose and body touch). The attention move to inside of the 4 objects satipatthana. Instead of looking at features from outside object, one is focusing on whatever happen to the body, feeling, mind reaction and the whole experience/dhamma.

The mind and body are completely relax, no reaction towards senses object. No greed, no ill-will, and no ignorance can arise due to wisdom.

This is why when one is in Jhana is the 5 sense organ consciousness that may lead to desire for more can't arise. When there is no desires for 5 senses, then the physical body will evolve to new physical body as well (here and now). Wisdom (from continuous practice) prevents the 5 senses consciousness to arise (hence it is said to cease).

No desire towards 5 senses, therefore there is no 5 senses consciousness. (note: I'm oversimplifying the DO here)

Anyway, I have tried to explain as much as I can. Depend on your practice, unfortunately when the mind is not developed, it is difficult to fully grasp the understanding.

[quote-Auto]purification of what. From Sutta it is purified mindfulness and equanimity - upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ.[/quote]
Just look at MN 43. It purified from 5 senses, although 1st jhana is already off, but it is not fully purified. Rupa Jhana is purification of Vedana part. Ayatana (Arupa) is purification of Sanna part. From here one can entered SannaVedayitaNirodha which is completely cessation of Vedana and Sanna.

...
“What can be known by purified mind consciousness (parisuddhena manoviññāṇena) released from the five senses?”

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.”
...
“These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.”
...
“These five faculties depend on life to continue.”
...

Is nibbana realized during jhana or after you have emerged from it... Like, first experience jhana then practice for it to attain it(go beyond kama lineage).

You are mixing up things. At what level are we talking about? Is it a stream enterer level or an arahant or what?

But in general, Nibbana needs Jhana. No jhana means no nibbana. If one want to experience Nibbana, then one needs to be in Jhana to switch to Nibbana.

Anyway, I hope you got the point. There is no emerging from it. Emerging from jhana means go back to sensual realm. This means no nibbana, more existence in sensual realm, more samsara, more suffering in other realms.

However, one can't stay in nibbana in real life all the time. This is why an arahant stay only in Jhana all the time till end of life. But once in jhana, they can switch to Nibbana anytime.

Well, Nibbana is a difficult one. No development of path from practice, no Nibbana.

Maybe this below video may help.

[Joe.c]

it's unclear what you mean by 5 senses not affecting the mind, see post before. Also, you say sexual function? as function you mean kiriya, in contrast to kamma and vipaka?

I don't want to use Kiriya. Those are after effect. Those are mundane way explanation.

It seem you mean 'no function' as something not possible to do, whereas in case of how kiriya is being rendered, it means not producing an effect.

Well when one has no desire towards anything when they do things. Will they generate any result? Of course not.

This is why Buddha said:

Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.

When there is no 5 sense consciousness by staying in Jhana or Nibbana, there are 2 results possibillity:

1. For non returner, there is no kamma that result in 5 senses world (Kama loka), because there is no desire/craving towards the 5 senses world. Still have some leftover, maybe stuck with pleasant feeling of the meditation. But much much better than 5 sensual pleasure.
2. But for an arahant, there is no kamma in any world because of no craving towards anything. Mind is completely free.

[auto]

When one has developed Satipatthana and result in developed Jhana (samma samadhi). Their attention (manasikara) has been taken off from 5 senses experience (eye, ear, tongue, nose and body touch). The attention move to inside of the 4 objects satipatthana. Instead of looking at features from outside object, one is focusing on whatever happen to the body, feeling, mind reaction and the whole experience/dhamma.

how is that different from simply being aware?

The mind and body are completely relax, no reaction towards senses object. No greed, no ill-will, and no ignorance can arise due to wisdom.

This is why when one is in Jhana is the 5 sense organ consciousness that may lead to desire for more can't arise. When there is no desires for 5 senses, then the physical body will evolve to new physical body as well (here and now). Wisdom (from continuous practice) prevents the 5 senses consciousness to arise (hence it is said to cease).

as above it sounds like an explanation to what you already said, so i would think it is the state where one is aware

Anyway, I have tried to explain as much as I can. Depend on your practice, unfortunately when the mind is not developed, it is difficult to fully grasp the understanding.

if you stay aware and do nothing, then there arises the desire to do something to escape the dukkha, boredom.
If it is not awareness you talking about then i don't know what you mean by what you say.

purification of what. From Sutta it is purified mindfulness and equanimity - upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ.

Just look at MN 43. It purified from 5 senses, although 1st jhana is already off, but it is not fully purified. Rupa Jhana is purification of Vedana part. Ayatana (Arupa) is purification of Sanna part. From here one can entered SannaVedayitaNirodha which is completely cessation of Vedana and Sanna.

yeah, my bad, i remembered mn43 later. I were thinking about something else at that time.

You are mixing up things. At what level are we talking about? Is it a stream enterer level or an arahant or what?

But in general, Nibbana needs Jhana. No jhana means no nibbana. If one want to experience Nibbana, then one needs to be in Jhana to switch to Nibbana.

Anyway, I hope you got the point. There is no emerging from it. Emerging from jhana means go back to sensual realm. This means no nibbana, more existence in sensual realm, more samsara, more suffering in other realms.

i mix things up since i have plenty of options to choose from what could mean what.

Well when one has no desire towards anything when they do things. Will they generate any result? Of course not.

Isn't the result produced by feeling a feeling not by an action(kamma)? Desire rises in dependence to feeling, feeling-->craving.
You hold your hand against the hot plate and there builds up a feeling till you want to pull it away:
kamma would be if you burn your hand
vipaka is if you can absorb the heat and thus also don't burn the hand
In case of kiriya, there is no absorption either.

but i don't really know and i am open to ideas. Thanks for sharing yours.

[Joe.c]

how is that different from simply being aware?

Well this is when you need to test it. What do you mean by being aware by then? Many people use this word, but they still go back enjoy sensual pleasure (eat --> body become fat again, lazy, happy with popularity, happy with senses object, many more).

If someone kill you at that time, will your mind and body reacting or not? or Will you remain calm with your matured wisdom? Is there any slight greed, hatred and/or ignorance towards the act?

Or Do you still crave for food after finish eating (an arahant can eat very little because body activity is minimal if they stay in jhana)? Will your body change (hormon, heart beat, etc) when you see a beautiful naked woman? anyway many way to test whether one is still crave for 5 sensual pleasure or not.

See MN 152 and others for understanding. But it is easier to tell one face to face what the meaning of this Sutta is. Do you have these power of Jhana or not.

...
And how are they a practicing trainee?
When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. They are horrified, repelled, and disgusted by that.
...
And how are they a noble one with developed faculties?
When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes (+plus other 5 senses), liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them.
If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do.
If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.
If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.
If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do.
If they wish: ‘May I meditate staying equanimous, mindful and aware, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.

if you stay aware and do nothing, then there arises the desire to do something to escape the dukkha, boredom.
If it is not awareness you talking about then i don't know what you mean by what you say.

This state is where it is just an experience as Bahiya Sutta or AN 11.8 or AN 11.7: Seeing is just a seeing. But make sure you have all the N8FP has been developed and can be tested again and again in daily life.

They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches.
...
And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind.
Yet they would be aware?”
...
“But how could this be?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant is aware: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.’

“Therefore, Bāhiya, this is how you are to train yourself:
In the seen, there will be just the seen.
...
Bāhiya, when it is like this for you –
...
There is no ‘you’ here, or beyond, or in between.
Just this is the end of suffering.”

Isn't the result produced by feeling a feeling not by an action(kamma)? Desire rises in dependence to feeling, feeling-->craving.
You hold your hand against the hot plate and there builds up a feeling till you want to pull it away:
kamma would be if you burn your hand
vipaka is if you can absorb the heat and thus also don't burn the hand

Hm... your explanation looks fine to me, but again I don't like to use Kiriya. There is none of this definition in Sutta.

The action/kamma is just neither bright nor dark kamma. This type of kamma is done when one has a N8FP fully developed since there is no Avijja/ Asava.

In case of kiriya, there is no absorption either.

But you need jhana for Asavas not to arise anymore whether it is 1st jhana or finer than that.

If one lose the jhana means there can be an ignorance (avijja) again or sensual pleasure defilement (Kamasava) or other existence (Bhavasava).

See MN 2 Sabbāsava Sutta or MN 9 Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta.

Jhana meanings can be vast in Buddha teaching. It can also means fast/lucid/deep/limitless/tranquil wisdom.

I also don't like to use absorption for jhana, because it means one can lose aware (i.e. not aware when they are in Jhana, unless it is the last state sannavedayittanirodha). When one is in Jhana, the awareness is perfectly clear/purified. Mind is completely transcended.

That's how I understood.

[auto]

how is that different from simply being aware?

Well this is when you need to test it. What do you mean by being aware by then? Many people use this word, but they still go back enjoy sensual pleasure (eat --> body become fat again, lazy, happy with popularity, happy with senses object, many more).
..
See MN 152 and others for understanding. But it is easier to tell one face to face what the meaning of this Sutta is. Do you have these power of Jhana or not.

When immersion(sense organ based) breaks, you become aware of a dhamma(upadhi, etc). That dhamma is object of the fetter(in heart). Sense organ object needs be relevant enough to become object of the heart(heart based immersion) and then break your immersion(sense organ..). Fetter/attachment is acquired long(days) before the craving breaks immersion and then the images you see will cause things(dislikeable and likeable things) arise in body.

For an alcoholic, the seeing of alcohol is orchestrated by the desire in heart. Non-alcoholic stepping into alco-store might see the bottles but they won't be seen with the heart, unless one is thirsty for water and thinks alcohol could substitute water..

[Joe.c]

When immersion(sense organ based) breaks, you become aware of a dhamma(upadhi, etc). That dhamma is object of the fetter(in heart). Sense organ object needs be relevant enough to become object of the heart(heart based immersion) and then break your immersion(sense organ..). Fetter/attachment is acquired long(days) before the craving breaks immersion and then the images you see will cause things(dislikeable and likeable things) arise in body.

For an alcoholic, the seeing of alcohol is orchestrated by the desire in heart. Non-alcoholic stepping into alco-store might see the bottles but they won't be seen with the heart, unless one is thirsty for water and thinks alcohol could substitute water..

Anyway, i’m not quite sure what you are referring heart. I think you are mixing up some commentaries with Sutta. As i said it is easier to converse face to face and understood the whole vocabularies. Otherwise sometime one just miss the understanding from writing.

I suggest just practice and drop any commentaries. If there is any commentaries that you want to check, check it with your own practice. Don’t just blindly or logically think it seems ok.

As i said all statement in Sutta can be verified any time by one who practice the path. If it can’t be verified, then put it aside and continue to develop and maintain whatever has been developed.