Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Joe.c
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

Pasindu wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:36 am ...
Hm... Too much papanca. Just look up Sutta. It is easy. There is no requirement for Vipassana or any sitting meditation. 😅😁
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Wrong forum, Joe.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
pegembara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by pegembara »

Similar. The harder you try the harder it is going to be.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:24 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:08 am
Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm Stream Entry is easy. :-)
Agree.
If you have the right Kalyana Mitta.
There are many thousands of stream entrees but only a few Jhana attainers.
Jhana requires dedicated and continuous attention.
However, it is important to remember that Stream entrees also have a lower form of concentration.
Hence stream entry requires Jhana.
So if people attain jhana and emerge and see that jhana has vanished r they stream winner? Why other astic outside buddhism also know jhana vanished when they come out of meditation but not stream entry. ?
This is why you have to have a Kalyana Mitta and listen to true Dhamma.
Without listening true Dhamma of Buddha, you can't become a Stream winner.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User13866
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:39 pm Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.

We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah's assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
What do you think as to which is greater, the amount of times you have been born in a Buddha's dispensation & attaining jhana or the amount of leaves in the forests?
The Blessed One said, "From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
"From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Another point to consider is that it is more difficult for a Jhana practitioner to move into Vipassana than the Vipassana practitioner to move into Jhana.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User13866
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

There are many people who have lots of faith in the Buddha and go forth with full acceptance but are not entering the stream. Likewise with meditative attainments.. Stream Entry is absurdly difficult.

I don't like saying this because it might discourage people but it's the truth.

It's not something any one person can decide to get done in one lifetime, it's just not possible for most (guessing 99.999%+) due to the amount of conditioning that needs undoing.
User13866
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:37 am Stream Entry is absurdly difficult.
In general it might look easy for this or that person but we don't see the work that goes into attaining a good birth complete with sharp intellect and other good qualities.

We take things like physical beauty, strength, intelligence, courage and being otherwise well become for granted but nothing of this has come without effort.

A well born child can penetrate the Dhamma but this child then also has a mountain of merit behind him.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:44 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:39 pm Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.

We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah's assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
What do you think as to which is greater, the amount of times you have been born in a Buddha's dispensation & attaining jhana or the amount of leaves in the forests?
That's impossible to answer, as I don't routinely recall rebirth, and the suttas have not - as yet - provided me with any premises upon which to base an inference either way.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:12 am
User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:44 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:39 pm Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.

We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah's assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
What do you think as to which is greater, the amount of times you have been born in a Buddha's dispensation & attaining jhana or the amount of leaves in the forests?
That's impossible to answer, as I don't routinely recall rebirth, and the suttas have not - as yet - provided me with any premises upon which to base an inference either way.
Even if you could recall at any finite speed, you would exhaust your lifespan before reaching the beggining. Why? Because from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 

Either way, don't take my word for it. Not that i think you would take my word for it.

As i see it, jhana attainments are comparatively insignificant.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:17 am Even if you could recall at any finite speed, you would exhaust your lifespan before reaching the beggining. Why? Because from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 
Sorry to tell, but what Buddha was referred to in Sutta is completely different from your understanding.

Buddha meant when future become past, past become present and present become future. How can you tell where the beginning of past, present and future?
you wrote: As i see it, jhana attainments are comparatively insignificant.
Probably a fake jhana. Most people got into fake jhana.

A real jhana (samma samadhi) will be significant, because one can have very strong sati and can recall even any single details about this present life.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Alex123 »

Any comments on the Sarakani Sutta (SN55.24)?
Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
....
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan! Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

Stream entry can be attained even while listening to Dhamma
“Endowed with these six qualities, a person is capable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful qualities even while listening to the true Dhamma. Which six?

“He is not endowed with a (present) kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, or a result-of-(past)-kamma obstruction; he has conviction, has the desire (to listen), and is discerning.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_86.html
There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five?

“One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One’s views are made straight. One’s mind grows serene.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN5_202.html
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Sam Vara
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:17 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:12 am
User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:44 am

What do you think as to which is greater, the amount of times you have been born in a Buddha's dispensation & attaining jhana or the amount of leaves in the forests?
That's impossible to answer, as I don't routinely recall rebirth, and the suttas have not - as yet - provided me with any premises upon which to base an inference either way.
Even if you could recall at any finite speed, you would exhaust your lifespan before reaching the beggining. Why? Because from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 

Either way, don't take my word for it. Not that i think you would take my word for it.
I would be happy to take your word for it, but in this sub-section your word would need to be backed up by the authorities listed in the guidelines. There is an earlier reference to SN 56.31, but that doesn't really support the point. Nor does SN 15.13, unless I have missed any intended inference. There is an apparent link in the Sotāpattisaṁyutta between jhana (or at least samadhi) and stream entry, but that's about as far as I can get with this one.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:40 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:17 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:12 am

That's impossible to answer, as I don't routinely recall rebirth, and the suttas have not - as yet - provided me with any premises upon which to base an inference either way.
Even if you could recall at any finite speed, you would exhaust your lifespan before reaching the beggining. Why? Because from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. 

Either way, don't take my word for it. Not that i think you would take my word for it.
I would be happy to take your word for it, but in this sub-section your word would need to be backed up by the authorities listed in the guidelines. There is an earlier reference to SN 56.31, but that doesn't really support the point. Nor does SN 15.13, unless I have missed any intended inference. There is an apparent link in the Sotāpattisaṁyutta between jhana (or at least samadhi) and stream entry, but that's about as far as I can get with this one.
When you don't understand the Dhamma enough to answer that rather basic question then you are surely missing the intended inference.

Anyway, it's my mistake trying to explain things to someone who has already been well instructed yet remains confused about the basics.

I am sorry you don't know which is greater and i can only offer my sincere commiserations.
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Infinities are odd. If you spend half a minute recalling one past life, then half of half of a minute recalling the next, then half of half of half of a minute recalling the next, ad infinitum, you would have performed infinite recollections, infinite, recalling infinite past lives, all within the space of a minute. You can do the same thing with a second.

Probably best to not criticize people for allegedly not understanding the Dhamma because they don't immediately get a math trick involving infinities.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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