Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Eko Care
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Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Eko Care »

Regarding this post, only the comments that are civil and from the people who are familiar with classical texts are welcome.
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Recently I watched a Zoom Lesson conducted by Tipitaka Scholar Venerable Maggavihari at IIT.

During the last part of the lesson he explained about Jhanas.
  • In order to achieve Jhanas one must have practiced Sila well and he already requires a higher Wisdom.
  • Then he must have seen the Adinava (drawbacks) of Kama very well.
  • As long as one can't see the Adinava of Kama, he will not atain the Jhana.
  • After attaining jhanas, he achieves very higher level of Wisdom which is called Jhana-panna.
  • Jhana-panna is the one that eliminates the Delusion of "hiding the drawbacks of Sensual Pleasures".
  • Many people forget to notice the Wisdom in Jhana.
Then, there was a good Q&A session after the lesson, where a lay upasaka asked an interesting question.

Upasaka: Bhante, now that the jhanas being harder to achieve for a lay person than the Stream-entry, I want to learn about the path to attain Stream-entry , so, my question is ....

Venerable: Wait, wait !, We have to re-correct the question first. ... Are you saying that Jhanas are difficult than Stream-entry?

Upasaka: Yes, having listened to your lesson that explained the difficulty of attaining Jhanas, I think it's better for lay people to try Stream-entry first and then Jhanas.

Venerable: Oh ho, I know, this is how many people think about he Stream-entry.
And I know some people would think I am discouraging the practitioners when I say this.
I'm not speaking this to discourage the Meditators, but the truth should be known.
The Stream-entry is Million times Billion times harder to achieve than Jhana.
That is what the text implicitly says.
(therefore we should practice more and very orderly)
robertk wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:20 am
Someone wrote:
robertk wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:51 am Whatever this "discontinuous change", that we are "already seeing and knowing" is, it clearly isn't the impermanence that the arahats know.
Mystification is simply another means of self-deception and hiding from the pressure of the obvious and inescapable truth of impermanence - ...
There is nothing mystical about the path. However the idea that this path can be easily grasped is wrong:

Samyutta Nikaya (V, Mahavagga, Book XII, the Truths, chapter V),The keyhole.
"Now what think you, Ananda? Which which is the harder task : To shoot like that or to pierce one strand of hair, a hundred times divided, with another strand?
Why, lord, of course to split a hair in such a way is the harder, muchthe harder task.
Just so, Ananda, they who penetrate the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, pierce through something much harder to pierce.
and
Ariyapariyesana Sutta
"This Dhamma that I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning,
subtle, to be experienced by the wise.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by DNS »

I think that makes sense. Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama were sramana ascetics who the Buddha studied under and they were able to reach formless realms, but not enlightenment, nor sotapannahood.

In Jainism, Hinduism and possibly some other religions, we hear of some ascetics reaching jhana-like states of consciousness, but not enlightenment.

Therefore, stream-entry would be harder to attain than jhana. A person could have regular jhana attainments, but no enlightenment. Even Devadatta had some psychic abilities (later lost them) but of course no enlightenment.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by User13866 »

Immeasurably more difficult.

Attaining seclusion is a quite straightforward step-by-step process, a person needs to learn the steps but it's easy to understand.

Stream-Entry is something a person more or less works up to since a beginningless transmigation and certainly all of his life.

It's difficult to find people not fixated in pernicious wrong views let alone people who have abandoned them.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Sam Vara »

Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.

We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah's assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

Stream Entry is easy. :-)
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm Stream Entry is easy. :-)
No…
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Post by sunnat »

It is very difficult to understand with a mundane mind. All sorts of opinions will proliferate. The correct one is very simple but the mundane mind tends to misunderstand rather than taking explanations at face value. Usually it is pointless to try.
It is the training as per instructions that bears fruit. Those who do practice according to correct instructions will enter the stream (at a time dependent on conditions). Having done so one can say it is indeed easy. It is the abandonment of pre existing tendencies that is difficult.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Eko Care »

Sam Vara wrote: Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.
I think it depends on the person.
Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu persons might attain in his very life.
Neyya-person might or not attain in this life depending on the support he gets.
Padaparama-peson needs "Two to Eons" time.
Sam Vara wrote: We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah's assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
This kind of opinions can be the very thing the venerable implicitly addresses.

Depend on the Sect/Interpretation that one follows, the time believed may vary.

I have read the teacher-monks in Ajahn Chah tradition teach "Sakkayaditthi" as "Giving up the physical body".

According to such interpretations, the time believed may become short, because there is the possibility of attaining "A samadhi or Jhana state", by which the attachment to "physical body" may given up temporarily, by some ardent practitioners.

Given that the preacher monk (OP) is a Mahavihara-traditional monk, he most probably believes the classical interpretation of "Sakkayaditthi" which is "Upadana to all the 5 khandhas".
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Alrac »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:33 pm The Stream-entry is Million times Billion times harder to achieve than Jhana.
For a puthujjana transforming Doctrines & Gurus into Idols for Worship, yes, stream-entry is impossible to achieve.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm Stream Entry is easy. :-)
Agree.
If you have the right Kalyana Mitta.
There are many thousands of stream entrees but only a few Jhana attainers.
Jhana requires dedicated and continuous attention.
However, it is important to remember that Stream entrees also have a lower form of concentration.
Hence stream entry requires Jhana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

SarathW wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:08 am
Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm Stream Entry is easy. :-)
Agree.
If you have the right Kalyana Mitta.
There are many thousands of stream entrees but only a few Jhana attainers.
Jhana requires dedicated and continuous attention.
However, it is important to remember that Stream entrees also have a lower form of concentration.
Hence stream entry requires Jhana.
So if people attain jhana and emerge and see that jhana has vanished r they stream winner? Why other astic outside buddhism also know jhana vanished when they come out of meditation but not stream entry. ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Pasindu »

Seeing as stream entry frees you from hell, it must be a truly difficult thing to attain. But it is also worth mentioning if someone holds off practicing vipassana meditation until they attain a jhana, they could be wasting their lives, because you could do those practices just as well in a Buddha-less time. But you can only practice vipassana meditation when there is buddhism.

Jhana are extremely hard to attain and once attained, extreamly hard to keep them from disappearing. There are jataka tales as haritha jataka, or thakka jataka where ascetics loose their jhana powers by thoughts of lust. And these were ascetics who dedicated their whole lives in seclusion to comple the required sila for jhana. So I don't think it is fruitful for a modern day lay householder to postpone vipassana meditation for jhana. Plus some, naturally attain jhana and iddi powers when enlightened, due to surfacing of practices of previous lives. Eg: Chullapanthaka thero. And there are some who do not possess higher jhana but still were enlightened, eg: Chakkupala thero. And also Susima sutta is proof of one's ability to be enlightened without higher jhana or iddi powers.

Susima Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And then there is also this verse in Rathana sutta
That pure concentration the Supreme Buddha praised is described as
‘concentration without interruption’.
There is nothing like that concentration.
In the Dhamma is this precious jewel found.
On account of this truth, may there be well-being!
http://nalanda.org.my/e-library/ratanasutta/english.php

Which means the samadhi Buddha hightly praised is not the samadhi worldly jhana but of the four fruits. As even though one could be declined from worldly jhana, a sotapana would never fall to hell, and an arhat will never fall for a woman.

:namaste:
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Inedible »

If this were so, why is it that a person who can't attain Jhana can become a Stream Enterer?
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by Joe.c »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:39 pm
Joe.c wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:24 pm Stream Entry is easy. :-)
No…
Yeah a foolish one and a puthujjana with wrong view will be difficult. 😏
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Stream-entry is Million times harder than Jhana?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:46 am Yeah a foolish one and a puthujjana with wrong view will be difficult. 😏
Matthew 7
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