auto wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:36 pm
Wasn't commenting on stream entry, but on your claim about senses going off at 1st jhana. I can see i am information deprived.
I see, now reread your previous reply it make senses. Yes only stream enterer or once returner can enter samma samadhi. Once they are able to maintain jhana in daily life for 24/7 and get the fruit of non returner.
They can declare that they will not return to human world ever.
But an outsider who has developed jhana is also possible to become non returner or an arahant with hearing the dhamma,
just look at
SN 22.59, those outsiders with jhana (with wrong view) become arahant upon hearing true dhamma from Buddha.
you wrote:Personal witness(kāyasakkhī) seem to be experiencing jhana and realizes cessation(without relying on the noble path, guess based on how liberated both ways comes about). Could hint it is mundane person if to read the liberated both ways is (immaterial) jhana + noble path(in contrast making this case to be a noble person).
Just refer to MN 70 kitagiri for the definition. Btw, you don't need to know that much. Once just needs to start practice the path gradually to reach the final destination.
Unfortunately people want to get to Nibbana Asap but never develop the faculties. It is just like blind man walking randomly.
N8FP is path with multiple steps.
First step is hearing true dhamma, then practice precepts.
Upon perfecting those, then only then can go develop sati/samadhi (including senses restraint). By then, one can abandon the precepts because the precepts has become automatic (fully developed)
And so on.
visuddhimagga wrote:(3) he first experiences the experience of jhána and
afterwards realizes cessation, Nibbána, thus he is a body witness;
..
(4) He is liberated in both ways, by
immaterial jhána and the noble path, thus he is both-ways liberated.
Just drop the commentaries from visuddhimagga or any commentaries.
The sutta is more than enough to practice the whole life. It may not even be enough because human life right now is only 80 years old. It is indeed too short to perfecting the faculties.
auto wrote:any way my guesses are derived from that there is concentration based on sense organ consciousness and concentration based on heart mind.
.
Im not sure where you get this information. There are only 6 vinnana (5 senses and mind). You drop 5, then drop last one. It is gradual practice. Can't drop all six at the same time.
auto wrote:
not according to the suttas, dn17 for example.
in his past life he knew 4 jhana.
This only happen when Buddha has fully awakened. Once you have fully awakened, your mind can move freely past, present or future. No boundaries. He can check his past lives, how and what has been developed and use the knowledge to verify again and again.
But unawakened mind is just not freed yet. Unawakened mind is still being bound by fetters.
auto wrote:
if its non-returner then he would have had 5 fetters already removed.. so for now i don't get your logic,
When he is still unawakened, he was only a stream enterer or once returner.
My guess he is a once returner who lose the jhana during his previous life under Buddha Kassapa. See MN 81.
But again no one want to believe it.
Anyway path and wisdom goes together. If one says they have the wisdom that means they have fully developed the path up to that wisdom.
There is no need commentaries to support the direct personal experience wisdom/insight.
Again all this can be checked and verified in real life here and now.
Same thing with whatever say in Sutta. Everything can be verified by one who follow the path. Problem is do you have patient to stay in the path day in and day out or not until the fruit/result.