Ambition vs. the dhamma

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thepea
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Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
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DNS
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Chanda
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... mana_Sutta

There are wholesome desires and ambitions; seeking enlightenment, generosity, doing good.

There are unwholesome desires; seeking sense pleasures, killing, fishing, stealing, etc.
asahi
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by asahi »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
Good ambition could means living and earning your livelihood and multiply it through right efforts and right channel which is not agaisnt unwholesome actions , jobs or businesses . Bad ambition is in contrary to the above .
No bashing No gossiping
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:58 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Chanda
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... mana_Sutta

There are wholesome desires and ambitions; seeking enlightenment, generosity, doing good.

There are unwholesome desires; seeking sense pleasures, killing, fishing, stealing, etc.
“Doing good” how is this determined?
What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

asahi wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:11 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
Good ambition could means living and earning your livelihood and multiply it through right efforts and right channel which is not agaisnt unwholesome actions , jobs or businesses . Bad ambition is in contrary to the above .
How do we know what is wholesome vs unwholesome?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 pm
asahi wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:11 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
Good ambition could means living and earning your livelihood and multiply it through right efforts and right channel which is not agaisnt unwholesome actions , jobs or businesses . Bad ambition is in contrary to the above .
How do we know what is wholesome vs unwholesome?
The Buddha left us some handy lists, such as the one in MN 41:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:21 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 pm
asahi wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:11 pm

Good ambition could means living and earning your livelihood and multiply it through right efforts and right channel which is not agaisnt unwholesome actions , jobs or businesses . Bad ambition is in contrary to the above .
How do we know what is wholesome vs unwholesome?
The Buddha left us some handy lists, such as the one in MN 41:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Reading that, I do not see where it says killing fish to eat them is unwholesome?
It says loosely translated
One killing living beings:(with semi colon) then goes on to give the types of killing which is unwholesome.
It’s not implying that killing itself is unwholesome but rather a particular type of killing.
Then is does the same for
Taking that which is not given:(semi colon) then describes in more detail the types of taking which are unwholesome.
If I go to the forest and take a tree, it was not given... is this unwholesome?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:21 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:25 pm

How do we know what is wholesome vs unwholesome?
The Buddha left us some handy lists, such as the one in MN 41:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Reading that, I do not see where it says killing fish to eat them is unwholesome?
It says loosely translated
One killing living beings:(with semi colon) then goes on to give the types of killing which is unwholesome.
It’s not implying that killing itself is unwholesome but rather a particular type of killing.
Other versions are available, as has often been pointed out to you:
And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ntbb.html
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:13 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:21 pm

The Buddha left us some handy lists, such as the one in MN 41:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Reading that, I do not see where it says killing fish to eat them is unwholesome?
It says loosely translated
One killing living beings:(with semi colon) then goes on to give the types of killing which is unwholesome.
It’s not implying that killing itself is unwholesome but rather a particular type of killing.
Other versions are available, as has often been pointed out to you:
And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ntbb.html
Yes, and we have discussed the difference between killing and destruction already. We are at odds with this.

I literally just had a struggling neighbour text me and ask for food. I brought her some of the fish I caught and filleted, two dozen eggs and other items from the garden tomato’s, carrots, squash.
To do this felt good, it was Dana.
But according to David this was unwholesome???
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:37 pm I brought her some of the fish I caught and filleted, two dozen eggs and other items from the garden tomato’s, carrots, squash.
To do this felt good, it was Dana.
But according to David this was unwholesome???
According to the Suttas, killing is unwholesome, but as you've already mentioned in previous posts, you don't read the Suttas and even when others quote it for you, you ignore it or make up your own interpretations.
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:22 pm What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Sounds like far-leftist moral subjectivism. The Buddha taught moral absolutes (4NT), moral universalism. Some things are morally universal, regardless of time period, location, culture, etc.
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:40 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:37 pm I brought her some of the fish I caught and filleted, two dozen eggs and other items from the garden tomato’s, carrots, squash.
To do this felt good, it was Dana.
But according to David this was unwholesome???
According to the Suttas, killing is unwholesome, but as you've already mentioned in previous posts, you don't read the Suttas and even when others quote it for you, you ignore it or make up your own interpretations.
That’s not at all what I e said in past.
I have attended sutta discussions at a monestary for four years studying suttas.( here the difficulty was certain individuals wanted bhikku bhodi s rather than thanisarro’s translations. It was not perfect or peaceful on occasions.

I’ve also stated that it’s not my style to post using suttas as the authority, I prefer personal experience as my authority.

I’ve also stated that when supplied, I read the suttas provided so that I can respond informed.

Why you all keep stating that I don’t read the suttas is beyond me.

Now, I’ve read everything sent to me regarding killing and I do not see killing as an absolute no no. But rather the mind one carries as they kill is the important part.
For example the Native American Indians killing a Buffalo and honouring, respecting and loving this animal through the entire process. This ambition seems wholesome, and good.
dharmacorps
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by dharmacorps »

Here we go again. Some dhamma for you, if you can put aside your own ideas and ambition for a moment:

"A man may plunder
as long as it serves his ends,
but when others are plundered,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.
A fool thinks,
'Now's my chance,'
as long as his evil
has yet to ripen.
But when it ripens,
the fool falls into pain.

Killing, you gain
your killer.
Conquering, you gain one
who will conquer you;
insulting, insult;
harassing, harassment.

And so, through the cycle of action,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.
— SN 3.15"
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

dharmacorps wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:20 pm Here we go again. Some dhamma for you, if you can put aside your own ideas and ambition for a moment:

"A man may plunder
as long as it serves his ends,
but when others are plundered,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.
A fool thinks,
'Now's my chance,'
as long as his evil
has yet to ripen.
But when it ripens,
the fool falls into pain.

Killing, you gain
your killer.
Conquering, you gain one
who will conquer you;
insulting, insult;
harassing, harassment.

And so, through the cycle of action,
he who has plundered
gets plundered in turn.
— SN 3.15"
Plunder is specific to war. Killing a Buffalo for food is not war.
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:43 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:22 pm What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Sounds like far-leftist moral subjectivism. The Buddha taught moral absolutes (4NT), moral universalism. Some things are morally universal, regardless of time period, location, culture, etc.
Sounds like mealtime.
The gazelle is great meal for the tiger, not so great for the gazelle. Nothing right or left about nature.
Nature is middle ground or non political.
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