Ambition vs. the dhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

purple planet wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 pm
will be able to make up your own mind...


That i am wasting my time and his purely trolling and this is idle chatter by me ?
Hey PP,
Please don’t call me a troll just because we disagree.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by Sam Vara »

purple planet wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 pm
will be able to make up your own mind...


That i am wasting my time and his purely energy stealing and this is idle chatter by me ?
As I say, come to your own conclusions. But as I think your view on killing is correct and your intention seems to be good, I wouldn't say that you are indulging in idle chatter. :anjali:
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purple planet
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by purple planet »

You wrote "My practice stems from Goenka Vipassana. " so i gave you quotes of goenka himself answering the questions You asked , but you dismiss it and guess the reasoning behind why he said what he said


The reason i decided to enter this talk was 100% because you wrote dishonest posts ! not really because of the content (yes/no to killing) , but how you distorted the conversation itself
Last edited by purple planet on Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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purple planet
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by purple planet »

thepea wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:32 pm
purple planet wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:26 pm
will be able to make up your own mind...


That i am wasting my time and his purely trolling and this is idle chatter by me ?
Hey PP,
Please don’t call me a troll just because we disagree.
Ohh, i literally started editing it right after i wrote it (because i thought it might be too harsh) , didnt think you would see it soo fast

It does seem you are trolling with this posts - but maybe you are not trolling , i can see other reasons that are not with the specific reason to annoy people , so i apologize for that (and also apologize for the edit itself that you are doing this subconsciously to steal energy) i should have been nicer and smarter , that post was out of place (i actually thought this while writing it)

And i would like to emphasis the main issue for me is not a disagreement about a topic but the way you interact while discussing it (distorting others points and being dishonest about it , which is pretty bad kamma)
Last edited by purple planet on Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DNS
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:16 pm You seem to be dodging the question.
What is the consequence, of fishing?
I’ve given two goods, what is the bad?
I've mentioned this several times, you just ignore it. It is killing and the Dhamma does not approve of killing. As to the specific kamma-vipaka consequence, that calls for speculation, which I'm not going to do. Some kill and then later rehabilitate.
I’m not trying to discuss eating habits, that’s quite obvious.
We are discussing ambition.
If my ambition is to end my hunger or my families hunger, and I must kill an animal for its flesh and I do this in absolute consciousness with respect and love what is the bad.
Why won’t you answer this?
Again, I have discussed this, you just ignore it. I wrote:

Regarding vegetarian or omnivore diets, that is for the great vegetarian debate thread. You can post there about that. In regard to killing, the Buddha's Dhamma is 100% clear; no killing. Buddhists who eat meat do not kill; they eat meat from animals that were already dead. You can argue that this is appropriate or inappropriate and make your case in the vegetarian debate thread, but regarding killing, the Buddha's Dhamma is clear and obvious: no killing.

And to add to that, a Buddhist or Dhammist can take either view, that one should be vegetarian or the other view that there is no need to be vegetarian, but here's the big caveat: It doesn't matter if a practitioner of Dhamma is vegetarian or omnivore, either way, they all agree that killing is not allowed, not approved of. This is permeated throughout the Suttas.
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:08 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:16 pm You seem to be dodging the question.
What is the consequence, of fishing?
I’ve given two goods, what is the bad?
I've mentioned this several times, you just ignore it. It is killing and the Dhamma does not approve of killing. As to the specific kamma-vipaka consequence, that calls for speculation, which I'm not going to do. Some kill and then later rehabilitate.
I’m not trying to discuss eating habits, that’s quite obvious.
We are discussing ambition.
If my ambition is to end my hunger or my families hunger, and I must kill an animal for its flesh and I do this in absolute consciousness with respect and love what is the bad.
Why won’t you answer this?
Again, I have discussed this, you just ignore it. I wrote:

Regarding vegetarian or omnivore diets, that is for the great vegetarian debate thread. You can post there about that. In regard to killing, the Buddha's Dhamma is 100% clear; no killing. Buddhists who eat meat do not kill; they eat meat from animals that were already dead. You can argue that this is appropriate or inappropriate and make your case in the vegetarian debate thread, but regarding killing, the Buddha's Dhamma is clear and obvious: no killing.

And to add to that, a Buddhist or Dhammist can take either view, that one should be vegetarian or the other view that there is no need to be vegetarian, but here's the big caveat: It doesn't matter if a practitioner of Dhamma is vegetarian or omnivore, either way, they all agree that killing is not allowed, not approved of. This is permeated throughout the Suttas.
If I kill a fish you can’t say the bad is the killing.
That’s not a consequence of killing.
You can say if one tells a lie to his wife about sexual misconduct that the individual might be plagued with guilt and worry.
But for catching a fish for a family meal, what is the bad?
This is what I’m referring to.
In the first scenario the consequence isn’t the lie or sexual misconduct it’s the guilt/worry.
In the second the killing consequence isn’t killing.
I’m not dead from doing this.
thepea
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by thepea »

purple planet wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:38 pm You wrote "My practice stems from Goenka Vipassana. " so i gave you quotes of goenka himself answering the questions You asked , but you dismiss it and guess the reasoning behind why he said what he said


The reason i decided to enter this talk was 100% because you wrote dishonest posts ! not really because of the content (yes/no to killing) , but how you distorted the conversation itself
I didn’t dismiss what you said. I gave you an answer. I’ve sat a bunch of his courses and you mentioning his words is not the first time I’ve contemplated this.
I have worked with very old students who invite me to go have bacon and eggs after a service period is done.
Eggs are forbidden at Goenka course also but these At’s and old students eat them too.
They haven’t gone to vegetarian diet.
So why does Goenka mention this?
I gave you my answer, if you don’t accept it that’s ok, we can disagree. But I’m not trolling or trying to steal your energy or be dishonest in any way.
Last edited by thepea on Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DNS
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:58 pm If I kill a fish you can’t say the bad is the killing.
Yes I can say the bad is the killing. It's permeated throughout the Suttas and I'm a Dhammist.

All beings tremble before danger, all fear death. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill. All beings fear before danger, life is dear to all. When a man considers this, he does not kill or cause to kill.” Dhammapada, 129-130

"He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world.” Dhammika Sutta, Sutta Nipata, Khuddaka Nikaya
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Debate for its sake does not encourage learning. It’s constantly evasive.

When Goenkaji said it’s a selfish teaching he meant it as a play on words concepts about how the best interest of the other, like harmlessness, is always the best interest of oneself. One does not kill because one does not wish to be killed. It’s a mundane wisdom that is good for beginners to contemplate. Later one finds that the act of harming an other being immediately gives rise to dhukkha in ones mindbody phenomenon.

Harmlessness is a sign of progress on the path for the pathwalker.
thepea
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Re:

Post by thepea »

sunnat wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:14 am Debate for its sake does not encourage learning. It’s constantly evasive.

When Goenkaji said it’s a selfish teaching he meant it as a play on words concepts about how the best interest of the other, like harmlessness, is always the best interest of oneself. One does not kill because one does not wish to be killed. It’s a mundane wisdom that is good for beginners to contemplate. Later one finds that the act of harming an other being immediately gives rise to dhukkha in ones mindbody phenomenon.

Harmlessness is a sign of progress on the path for the pathwalker.
Ok, that’s a consequence but it’s vague.
What kind of dhukka in mind body phenomenon?
Would it be guilt, anxiety, depression....
How are some native North American Indians able to unify with source consciousness?
Last edited by thepea on Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Re:

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:40 am Ok, that’s a consequence but it’s vague.
The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.

Vipaka Sutta: Results
thepea
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Re: Re:

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:59 am
thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:40 am Ok, that’s a consequence but it’s vague.
The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.

Vipaka Sutta: Results
That sounds like fear mongering.
Qualify this statement.
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Post by sunnat »

.

What kind? - shame to pain
How? - ignorance
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Re: Ambition vs. the dhamma

Post by form »

thepea wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:36 pm
form wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:17 pm
thepea wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm Good ambition?
Bad ambition?
Where is the line between?
This is same like the Buddha teaching people to renounce and yet he also teach people to brush their teeth.

You get it?
Yes I get it.
We do things that are beneficial to us, we choose to brush out teeth, because we see when we don’t there are unpleasant effects.
Similarly we drill for oil so that we have energy to heat our homes otherwise we suffer the pain of freezing.
Similarly we fish and eat the fish, otherwise we suffer hunger pangs in our bellies.
There can be a good ambition for everything we do, where is the line between good and bad?
The Buddha taught we need to be healthy in order to practice properly. He taught desire/volition move the world and our existence. He taught us to practice diligently but gradually. A string that is too tight or too loose produce no nice music. He taught us to be determined but pliant.
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Re: Re:

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:11 am That sounds like fear mongering.
Qualify this statement.
karma is logical, steal and you will lose money, lie and you will be falsely accused


deprive others of life and you will deprive yourself of long life
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