Musings about meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:49 pm And this means what, exactly?
To focus on something forgetting everything else..
That isn't quite what happens in Jhāna as per Theravāda.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:10 pm Ceisiwr... you obviously don't agree that jhana, abandoning of hindrances, 'vipassana' are all the same bag... it's the separation and reduction of these themes to 'methods' that causes confusion.

My post was perfectly on point with the OP since there is no separation... to seperate is like trying to wiggle your fingers without a hand palm.
I mean, they are different things. Abandoning of the hindrances is their cessation. Seeing they are gone, and seeing the success of the meditation, is a condition for rapture and bliss and so Jhāna. Jhāna in turn is of two types

"Jhāna is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks. Of these two, "object-scrutinising" Jhāna examines closely the devices [e.g., Kasiṇas] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called "characteristic examining Jhāna". Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence etc." - The Expositor (Atthasālinī)

A practice such as the Earth Kasiṇa is a purely Samatha practice.

"One person perceives the earth kasiṇa above, below, across, undivided, measureless."
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr... you're not going to convince me (especially with the Atthasālinī) and I'm not going to convince you...so...

🤗
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:35 pm Ceisiwr... you're not going to convince me (especially with the Atthasālinī) and I'm not going to convince you...so...

🤗
On the original point, your initial post was wildly off topic.
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“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:37 pm
Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:15 pm Good point, replacing unskilful mindstates is more useful (and pleasant) than just observing them.
What are unskillful. "mindstates"?
Any unwholesome mind content that causes suffering, eg discursive thoughts based on greed, ignorance and delusion (papanca) and the defilements and hindrances.
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by purple planet »

I wrote in the other thread but will write here too (so answer were you prefer)

I get you are talking about active meditation , that while i did do some of this things , without much focus , that i need to really actively pursue them


so i have the issue of motivation still and my main question is about in what way we advance ? what steps and if it not all falls away every time i stop ?

also how you counter doubt - maybe i missed it ? its hardest cause i am not sure i want to counter it .... and i undersatnd that resarch is a counter to doubt as well ...... and my main doubt is about advancing - that if i put mega effort for a month two or six if i "fall" and stop doing anything for a week or a month than it doesnt all go away and than i think to myself : whats the point to put all that effort in in first place if i end up in point zero
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Google the hindrance of doubt then see what advice takes your fancy.

Good that you're aware that there is some attachment to doubt.
sunnat
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by sunnat »

Firstly it is important to remember that it is a long path dependent on conditions. Buddha said that patience is the greatest virtue. It really is. While being patient, doubt comes and goes at the right time. There is a subtle feeling attached to this thing called doubt. This feeling is not you or yours. It comes and goes. When doubt arises, recognise doubt has arisen and bring attention to an object of meditation like breath, in time you will begin to separate from and recognise the feeling. Continue detaching from it and in time doubt will pass not to rise again.
User13866
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by User13866 »

In short, I'll just advise you on what to try.

For motivation develop the perception of death

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Do as much as you want but at least try 3-5 minutes once or twice a day, or something like this. If you skip a day or two then try to do a little more to make up for later.
cause i dont see if even i do this actively for a month or two or even six or 9 , i will not just have some fall and its all thrown to the garbage
Try doing at least mediocre effort for a few days and i will be surprised if you don't see any difference in regards to motivation
how we advance in the path exactly ?
I can't say exactly how you advance but we are trying to condition good behavior & are undoing bad conditioning.
Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind.
When you contemplate things you normally don't contemplate it will have a very noticeable effect even if done moderately.
if i remove lust for food for example , and not during the meditation only - is that advancment ? some fixed advancment ? or its just something i maintain so it doesnt bother me when i meditate ?
Don't worry about it being eradicated overnight. There was recently a thread about developing the perception of unattractiveness in regards to food, a lot of detail from Vsm, but if you can justly contemplate the impermanence of all things having to do with food, tongue & taste.

Again, try putting at least some kind of respectable time into developing this perception and your mind will be adjusted by it
reading about effacement practice for example - it seems to me if someone does them all than he is sorta close to enlightened by that alone .... 
It's good you see it that way but don't be overwhelmed, it's a training, it's a gradual development of one's character.
are there "leaves" that we are removing one by one really ? or are there really branches ? and what are they exactly ?
Just set it aside, this isn't important
do we advance by adding enlightnment factors ? removing hindreces ? all togther ? maybe we are advancing one step but going back two ?
We develop enlightenment factors. I don't want to go into detail here.

We ought to be mindful of arisen hindrances, dispelling them and doing preventive work. I don't want to go into detail here.

A lot of this having to do with factors & hindrances has already been drawn out in detail on this forum & elsewhere.
purple planet wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:38 pm
also how you counter doubt - maybe i missed it ? its hardest cause i am not sure i want to counter it .... and i undersatnd that resarch is a counter to doubt as well ...... and my main doubt is about advancing -
Should be cleared up by now

Anyway, try set aside your usual training and instead just make yourself comfortable and contemplate death & impermanence for a few days.

If you have time and want to do more then contemplate impermanence (of this or that or in general). It's the king perception in many ways.

If you feel like it then do anapanasati/kayagatasati, if you are much distracted then use noting of the breathing or note whatever you want, and if you aren't much distracted then just sit mindful without noting and simply relax & enjoy calming.

I leave out a lot here, i just want you to relax & witness how perception establishment works for youself.

You might get pleasure from development but if you don't & feel discontented then you can enjoy sensual pleasures, it's allowable for you in moderation.
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Re: Musings about meditation

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User13866 wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:54 am
purple wrote:reading about effacement practice for example - it seems to me if someone does them all than he is sorta close to enlightened by that alone .... 
It's good you see it that way but don't be overwhelmed, it's a training, it's a gradual development of one's character.
I want to add saying that this practice of effacement keeps us out of trouble.

When we are skillful in avoiding things that cause remorse then medition is not just easy, the mind becomes like a tamed animal doing whatever we trained it to do.

Most of the trouble we get into is due to socialization and it is very detrimental. We are flawed & the people we socialize with are flawed, and it is then no wonder things go sour keeping us stuck for a long time.
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by User13866 »

The above Is advise for purple planet btw
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:38 pm

also how you counter doubt - maybe i missed it ? its hardest cause i am not sure i want to counter it .... and i undersatnd that resarch is a counter to doubt as well ...... and my main doubt is about advancing -

Should be cleared up by now
Im still not sure how to deal with doubt ?

Was just thinking that maybe the main thing i need to relax in meditation is to overcome the feeling of not advancing , but leaving that thing aside is the feeling im not meditating enough or not being ascetic enough , so maybe if i overcome that issue i might get good meditation ? and if so there is a way to overcome that (feeling i need to meditate more for example (cause being ascetic is much easier for me than to increase meditation times) ?

* also how do i de facto do that contemplation of death ? repeat some sentence ? just think about it ? (also i dont know - i am thinking about people i care about getting old and dying , so i am motivated in that sense - and maybe if i get stronger with that than i will just get more thoguhts about how i dont do enough which might not help my meditation with having no remorse)
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:46 am the feeling im not meditating enough or not being ascetic enough , so maybe if i overcome that issue i might get good meditation ? and if so there is a way to overcome that (feeling i need to meditate more for example (cause being ascetic is much easier for me than to increase meditation times) ?
I think this is a disservice that monks inflict on lay people.

They give half-arsed instruction to their supporters like for example Ledi Sayadaw:
In the first stage, it is as yet not possible to perceive such details as the length of the out-breaths and in-breaths. In this stage, one has to keep one’s attention on the tip of the nose or the upper lip, as the case may be, wherever the striking of the out-breaths and in-breaths can be clearly grasped, and the attempt must be made to be aware of every out-breath and in-breath that occurs.

The attempt must be made for one or two hours, or for whatever length of time one is able to put forth effort, during which the attention must be firmly tied to the tip of the nose or the upper lip. The attempt must be persisted with until every out-breath and in-breath is perceived, without any breath escaping attention.

In the second stage, when the keeping of the attention on the out-breaths and in-breaths has been mastered, one has to attempt to perceive the long out-breath and in-breath as long, and the short out-breath and in-breath as short. Even during the space of one sitting, long as well as short breaths occur. Every long breath and every short breath must be perceived as such, and the perception must cover every breath, without missing even one out-breath or one in- breath. When the out-breaths and in-breaths are exhaled and inhaled slowly, they are long; and when they are exhaled and inhaled quickly, they are short. Thus, perceiving the long and short out-breaths and in-breaths consists of perceiving the slow and quick out-breaths and in-breaths.

In the third stage, when the perception of the long and short out-breaths and in-breaths has been mastered, every breath occurring within the body must be experienced in its entirety, right from its starting point within the body through its middle to the point where it ends within the body, the extremities of the breath (start or end as the case may be) being at the tip of the nose and at the navel.

In the fourth stage, when the experiencing of every breath in its entirety has been mastered, the coarse or rough breaths must be calmed down and allayed by degrees, making them more and more gentle and delicate, until ultimately the stage is reached when one thinks that one’s out-breaths and in-breaths have entirely disappeared.
This is insane... out of 1000 householders maybe 0.5-5% will ever be able to sit for 1-2 hours and the rest will feel like exactly as you describe.

Of those who are able to sit, some will attain something but not all of them will.

I've walked back & forth for 2-3 hours before sitting for 2-3 hours, repeating sets back to back. I've even more or less passed out due to overheating trying to push this way. It's dumb and sets people up for failure.

Buddha never taught this way in the texts.

Now I've already attained all the important meditative attainments which i've desired and have sat absorbed for hours in a pleasant abiding without effort, feeling only the equanimity of a base.

I tell you, it wasn't attained through forcing myself to sit for a long time but simply by being calm & mindful.
I was able to attain what my heart desired in no long time after sitting down & without resolving on it just prior to sitting nor expecting it.
purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:46 am Im still not sure how to deal with doubt ?
The Hindrances Individually 

Just as, monks, this body lives on nourishment, lives dependent on nourishment, does not live without nourishment — in the same way, monks, the five hindrances live on nourishment, depend on nourishment, do not live without nourishment.— SN 46:2


5. Doubt 

A. Nourishment of Doubt

There are things causing doubt; frequently giving unwise attention to them — that is the nourishment for the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen.— SN 46:51


B. Denourishing of Doubt


There are things which are wholesome or unwholesome, blameless or blameworthy, noble or low, and (other) contrasts of dark and bright; frequently giving wise attention to them — that is the denourishing of the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen.


Of the six things conducive to the abandonment of doubt, the first three and the last two are identical with those given for restlessness and remorse.
Six things are conducive to the abandonment of restlessness and remorse:

1. Knowledge and pondering of the Dhamma;
2. Asking questions about the Dhamma;
3. Familiarity with the Vinaya (the Code of Monastic Discipline, and for lay followers, with the principles of moral conduct);
4. Association with those mature in age and experience, who possess dignity, restraint and calm;
5. Noble friendship;
6. Suitable conversation.
The fourth is as follows:

Firm conviction concerning the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

In addition, the following are helpful in conquering Doubt:

Reflection, of the factors of absorption (jhananga);
Wisdom, of the spiritual faculties (indriya);
Investigation of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga).

C. Simile

If there is a pot of water which is turbid, stirred up and muddy, and this pot is put into a dark place, then a man with a normal faculty of sight could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized — SN 46:55
It's also good to try to set doubts aside and practice removal of distracting thoughts mn20
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .soma.html
Last edited by User13866 on Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User13866
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by User13866 »

purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:46 am * also how do i de facto do that contemplation of death ? repeat some sentence ? just think about it ? (also i dont know - i am thinking about people i care about getting old and dying , so i am motivated in that sense - and maybe if i get stronger with that than i will just get more thoguhts about how i dont do enough which might not help my meditation with having no remorse)
You should read the 2 sutta on Maranasati 1&2. Yes by contemplating, as in thinking about it & reflecting on it, as they do in those texts but you modify it for your situation.

I fixed the above post about the hindrance, should be ok now.
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Re: Musings about meditation

Post by User13866 »

purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:46 am maybe if i overcome that issue i might get good meditation ?
If you want to for example experience "pleasure born of seclusion" with your eyes closed/open, then you should clearly say so and resolve on it.

Saying "good meditation" doesn't mean much at all.

As an example, a good thought is a good meditation, because of the good result that it produces, because of the maturity of faculties that are required to have one and because of the disconnecting from bad states that is implied in having one.

If you want to see lights & visions in meditation then you should clearly say so.

As a Mahasi method practitioner, you have probably been told not to incline your mind to neither pleasure nor visions, so i don't know what you expect.
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