Musings about meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User13866
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Re: Musings about meditation

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Maybe you want to sit like a rock, equanimous for a long, long time, then you should say so.

Imho these aren't difficult attainments to get but you are not going to get them by practicing whatever & resolving on whatever
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Re: Musings about meditation

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If you want to see the formless bases then also say so

If you want to attain nirodha above all asap then you should likewise clearly say so too. This one isn't straightforward as the other attainments.

I am off for a while now, need a break
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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I wanted to advance in the path , which i guess means to advance towards accepting everything etc ... and when i mean advance i mean some fixed improvement (not temperate one)

i gave up on getting some really pleasurable state......... BUT ! now after reading your comments i am getting motivated to aim for that ... and once i experience some really cool experience than that would give me motivation to work harder and harder (or just that meditation becomes easy - than i would have no problem doing it - when meditation is my main issue not to do ascetic stuff)

Issue is i did do with mahasi 1 hour walking than 1 hour sitting (they said to not pass that time) and i did get some black out times , i would be semi mindful at start and at end which were not fun and was black out .... so if i did 2 hour meditation maybe i would black out for more

i also did get some times where i would sit and be mindful and it was not painful and maybe a bit relaxing maybe a tiny bit pleasurable , but just a tiny tiny bit and this were not 100% of the meditation time

and if this states are like that , if this states that were not bad just tolerable but nothing "wow"

(the "coolest" state i had is one i got at some retreats that i got this very strong pain , in the lower body and i just stay mindful and than it gets very strong but it doesnt bother me at all and it feels as if my entire lower body is just one mass of pain )


****** to sum up though - to get to "pleasure born of seclusion" seems very cool so i can compare it to the scripts , and i guess i can use it to advance to nirodha anyway ...... but yes i would love it also because of my "horrible" will to see it as some evidence of change , of result in my practice

so i would love to reach a state of "pleasure born of seclusion" in my meditation , as a state that i can recognize as such a state ( unlike for example what i experienced - i assume its really cool states that one can be sure of and not just "wow i feel relaxed and calm and not bothered by pain much now ) and assuming its a state i didnt experience before and some proof im actually doing something with the meditations



( anyway , since the "fall" i bought good amount of junk food that i wont finish in next 2-3 days and started a new pc game - so i probably wont get back to a strong effort in next few days - so no need to hurry with a reply)
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:37 pm Issue is i did do with mahasi 1 hour walking than 1 hour sitting (they said to not pass that time) and i did get some black out times , i would be semi mindful at start and at end which were not fun and was black out
I've heard about these blackouts from Mahasi practitioners quite a few times

Which is closer
A) blackout as in passing-out, fainting
B) blackout as in seeing black, percepient of darkness, not seeing forms or colors, but being lucid

I'll make a post on the attaining of pleasure born of seclusion later
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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Which is closer?
A) blackout as in passing-out, fainting
100% i am talking about this - zero lucidity

BTW i did have sometimes in meditation close to the end this periods of really good mindfulness .......... usually i would start have some really weak mindfulness as usual , than would black out , than "wake up" sometimes 5 min before the end but sometimes 20 min before than have some period of really good easy mindfulness with good noting of stuff and than usually last 5 minutes becomes hard again (and i think with less good mindfulness)


Issue is i didnt do mahasi in years ( so what i write about the meditations (times and all) is from vague memory) - at least not with labeling as i did (with raising falling of stomach (which i had a very very hard time noting - but i also have issue with breath at nose - but less) for the last year+ i just sit and let the timer run its course , i might be doing some mindfulness there , trying not to be caught in some thought or pain too much but not really great mindfulness and without some techinque
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:37 pmi would love to reach a state of "pleasure born of seclusion" in my meditation , as a state that i can recognize as such a state
Okey let's do this then :guns:

What you are aiming at is described here
Then it occurred to me, ‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of the rose-apple tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Could that be the path to awakening?’ Stemming from that memory came the realization: ‘That is the path to awakening!’
I will define this as i undestand & think about it
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities
Therein what are sensual pleasures?
The low worldly pleasures attained by ordinary folks such as pleasures of tasting food, pleasures of seeing a sunset, pleasures of praise & flattery, pleasures of play, pleasure of fatherhood, pleasure of profession, pleasure of frivolous talk, pleasure of entertainment, pleasure of indulging in the vulgar act, or pleasure of seeing one's enemies being defeating, all these & things like these are called 'sensual pleasures'.

Therein what is quite secluded from?

Meaning that in as far as sensual pleasures go, one is not aiming to obtain, isn't seeking, not aspiring to obtaining, not indulging in, not fantasizing about, not remembering having obtained, not being concerned with obtaining, not thinking about them in a way that would affirm that these are good things that should occur to him, not thinking about in a way that would result in wanting to obtain/seek/aspire to & etc.

Therein what are the unwholesome states
The five hindrances & the fevers born of the five hindrances are unwholesome states. Therein sensual desire as a hindrance, ill will as a hindrance, sloth & drowsiness as a hindrance, restlessness & anxiety as a hindrance, and uncertainty as a hindrance. These include remorse, lamentation, vexation, vengefulness, wrath, envy, jealousy & states like these. In other words any greed/longing & distress with reference to the world & the fevers born of that which would restrict the mind, scatter one's concentration and obsess him
Let's assume that at some point whenever (walking, sitting, lying down or standing) you want to gladden your mind & feel pleasure.

It is optional but preferable that you first reflect on the state of your mind's composure, thus:

Is my mind currently obsessed by sensual pleasures or are there right now any unwholesome qualities dominating my mind such that it would be difficult to obtain pleasure born of seclusion?

I will not go into detail about the stilling of every hindrance here because it would make the instruction quite complicated & overly comprehensive for what we are trying to achieve. Therefore, for simplicity let's assume that upon reflecting on your mind's composure, you find that there are no such apparent things which would make it difficult to concentrate [maintain non-distractedness]. Then you should resolve on experiencing pleasure born of seclusion and train your mind thus:

There are generally two ways to this pleasure's arising, or a mix of these two ways:
1. Induced by distancing oneself from the unwholesome by not thinking about unwholesome themes for a long enough time
This is generally done by simply relaxing & being mindful for as long as you are comfortable. It doesn't matter whether you sit for 5 or 120 minutes, only that you sit for as long as you are comfortable, mindful & alert.

Here you can still think if you feel like it. Here you can note anything you want to note but you don't have to. The reason why one would note is to cut off distracting thoughts for the purpose of not giving them attention, as to create that very distance by not thinking about unwholesome themes.

2. Induced by distancing oneself from the unwholesome by thinking about an inspiring theme for a long enough time
This is generally done by giving oneself an inspiring talk, exactly as one would inspire & gladden a dear friend with an inspirational talk.

There are many suitable themes but it has to be a theme that is connected to seclusion from sensual pleasures & unwholesome states, for this very reasons using the theme of Tathagata, Dhamma & Sangha is most appropriate.

Thinking about Tathagata & Sangha might not work for everyone because maybe one's faith might be weak. In such case where faith in Tathagata is weak, then thinking about Dhamma will work

For example one can think about the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, about escaping Mara's command, about being a destroyer [of defilement], about defeating Death's mighty army, about defeating one's own bad qualities and things like this. This is very much akin to a General's rousing of his troops on a battlefield, one has to find things that work.
You can start your session in either mode, with or without noting, or start by thinking about an inspiring theme, you can mix these methods & postures however you see fit and do whatever is most comfortable for you, there is no way for you to do this wrong.

Examples
  • You resolve on relaxing and sitting down comfortably resolving on being mindful & alert, without any noting. After some time of sitting comfortably you notice that you are having too many distracting thoughts, too many for your liking. You should then start noting bodily things, for example in & out breaths, for as long as you see fit.
  • After some time of sitting comfortably noting bodily things, you feel bored of it. Then if you feel like it, you should direct your mind to an inspiring theme and keep thinking about trying to rouse yourself with that talk, do this for as long as you want.
  • After some time of sitting comfortably & noting bodily things, you feel bored of it but you don't feel like thinking about any inspiring theme. You should change posture as you see fit and and keep training analogically for as long as you are comfortable.
More or less sums it up i think
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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In first thought it seems great and promising (anything new that i didnt try does to me cause it gives me hope) - some issues :


1 . reading this i assume i was in this state secluded from pleasures in meditations , so it reduces my motivation to get there again , cause it was nothing that nice and even more importantly its nothing i didnt try (even without knowing)

Was i not seculded in retreats i did ? why now would it be different in any way ?


2 .
You resolve on relaxing and sitting down comfortably resolving on being mindful & alert
I am rarely comfortable when i sit down , cause of back pains (and other body pains (pelvic , shoulder blades,knees etc) and noise from neighbors (which is also a distraction and also makes me frustrated and angry on them )

so what should i do when this things come up (which will be straight away) ?


Just note them ? but this seems again like what i did up to now no ?

( i do seem to be understanding why this is different ( because i am focused now on pleasure (from non attachment of course) unlike before when it was not my aim ? and by just that i have a differnt aim it will be different ?)


[ also saying this just for the record so its said (no need to talk about it) : because of the issue i have with how i advance and wondering if i do at all - i will have an issue with method number 2 (example i dont know if i ever destroyed any defilement more than temporary) and thinking about the buddha and dhamma and sangha is not that inspiring to me tbh , so i guess i am aiming to go by method 1]
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:10 pm In first thought it seems great and promising (anything new that i didnt try does to me cause it gives me hope) - some issues :

1 . reading this i assume i was in this state secluded from pleasures in meditations , so it reduces my motivation to get there again , cause it was nothing that nice and even more importantly its nothing i didnt try (even without knowing)

Was i not seculded in retreats i did ? why now would it be different in any way ?
Perhaps you were but if you didn't experience pleasure born of it, nor happiness, nor lights & visions, nor equanimity, or anything special then it wasn't sufficient.

If you are such that can't sit comfortably even for a short time, have a lot of pain & aches, with little faith, difficult to inspire, and are full of doubt & worry about your progress, then there is obviously a lot of hindrances.

The pleasure born on seclusion is quite strong, it fills the whole body. It can come on strong as a showering sensation or it can start small & grow spreading to encompass the whole body.

If this has happened to you then you would at least be able to say that sometimes you feel a distinct pleasure in meditation such that you would note 'pleasure, pleasure'. Following Mahasi method this would be called 'being as if in jhana'
Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.

When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.
https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... -Sutta.pdf
It is also what they would say is a potential for "corruption of insight"
.

There also arises a very sublime feeling of happiness suffusing all his body. Under its influence he becomes exceedingly joyous and he believes: "Now I am happy all the time," or "Now, indeed, I have found happiness never felt before," and he wants to tell others of his extraordinary experience. With reference to that rapture and happiness, which are aided by the factors of tranquillity, etc., it was said:

[...]

Having felt such rapture and happiness accompanied by the "brilliant light" and enjoying the very act of perfect noticing, which is ably functioning with ease and rapidity, the meditator now believes: "Surely I must have attained to the supramundane path and fruition![33] Now I have finished the task of meditation." This is mistaking what is not the path for the path, and it is a corruption of insight which usually takes place in the manner just described. But even if the meditator does not take the "brilliant light" and the other corruptions as an indication of the path and fruition, still he feels delight in them. This is likewise a corruption of insight. Therefore, the knowledge consisting in noticing, even if quick in its functioning, is called "the early stage of (or 'weak') knowledge of arising and passing away," if it is beset and corrupted by those corruptions. For the same reason the meditator is at that time not in a position to discern quite distinctly the arising and passing away of bodily and mental processes
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... s.html#ch4
I am rarely comfortable when i sit down , cause of back pains (and other body pains (pelvic , shoulder blades,knees etc) and noise from neighbors (which is also a distraction and also makes me frustrated and angry on them )
I would try to find a way to sit comfortably, try a chair maybe or use a different posture for example standing.
thinking about the buddha and dhamma and sangha is not that inspiring to me tbh
If thinking about Dhamma is not inspiring then it rules out even things like 'contemplating one's own virtue & generosity'.

Perhaps focus instead on developing the perceptions, kasina or asubha.

Either way my advise is not to force yourself to sit doing meditation if it is uncomfortable & results in aversion such that you can't overcome.
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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Ok , awsome , thank you very much :anjali: , i will give this a try , i assume i will just start to give this a proper shot in a few days (but will start the "prep work" now - maybe very very short meditations tops and will lower my sleeping hour , lower junk food etc ) with all my doubts about this working out i am still optimistic this might work out
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:10 pm example i dont know if i ever destroyed any defilement more than temporary
It's not necessary to have destroyed it, don't put the cart before the horse.

A warrior should be roused & inspired before winning the battle, assured that he is a destroyer and will destroy. Likewise you should believe in yourself and be intent on destruction before removing all defilement.

Also i noticed you mention having asceticism. You can use this thinking things like this:

'Asceticism is good, it is a cleaning of defilement!'
'All great yogis that came before had asceticism, all that will come after had asceticism, and i have the same asceticism, how great & fortunate i am!'
'Many beings struggle to gain asceticsm but for me it comes easy, surely many envy me, how fortunate i am!'
'Surely bad qualities will be abandoned & good qualities will increase, surely the victory will be mine by means of that very asceticism of mine!'

Perhaps you can inspire yourself in this way. It will be a reflection on your virtue and Dhamma.
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purple planet
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Re: Musings about meditation

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I was thinking when i wrote it , about it even partly destroyed , by partly i mean even 1/10000 of it , of dobut about even removing not even branches but "leaves"

if with faulty meditation and ascetism for example im a bit closer to destroying them


But because this is whole advancement issue i have is a major issue i have some years now , and didnt find an answer yet , including when i talked to you than i guess its just best put aside (thats why i wrote its for the record) , i am willing to ignore this thoughts and just pursue this pleasure from meditation , and if that works than that will be some clear result (i hope) not to mention should be fun so i dont see how from that point on i wont be motivated
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:23 am I was thinking when i wrote it , about it even partly destroyed , by partly i mean even 1/10000 of it , of dobut about even removing not even branches but "leaves"

if with faulty meditation and ascetism for example im a bit closer to destroying them


But because this is whole advancement issue i have is a major issue i have some years now , and didnt find an answer yet , including when i talked to you than i guess its just best put aside (thats why i wrote its for the record) , i am willing to ignore this thoughts and just pursue this pleasure from meditation , and if that works than that will be some clear result (i hope) not to mention should be fun so i dont see how from that point on i wont be motivated
Yes just put this aside, don't give it attention. That is how you starve that hindrance.

Try developing that asceticism theme, you can even think about how this or that precept is being kept by you and how you are good because of it.

I think this theme will work well for you.

Also, i will repeat that it's completely fine if you sit for a few minutes, walk back & forth at any speed you like for a few minutes, stand for some time, lie down for some time, then stand for some time, just keep going like this, changing postures for as long as comfortable and it will add up to hours of consecutive mindfulness, comfort & effort
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:10 pm noise from neighbors (which is also a distraction and also makes me frustrated and angry on them )
As to noise from neighbours.

Even in the forest you will have noise from birds & animals, or thunder & wind, and you wouldn't complain.

So why not let your neighbours make noise in their home without complaining about it.

As long as they are not talking to you nor pulling you by the arm, there should be no big issue.

You can also think nice things like
'How fortunate am i not to be involved with them or acting like them'
'May these silly people find peace & calm'
'They will make noise but i will be here restrained & practicing good things'
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Re: Musings about meditation

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And more micro - when im in meditation and i hear sounds and other interruptions what do i do with it ? label it ? note it (like i did up to now - in past with words now without) ?

I am asking now about the micro level of things - not serious back pain but im sitting and back pain comes up - but not enough to change a posture for

now re reading back i see this :
you notice that you are having too many distracting thoughts, too many for your liking. You should then start noting bodily things, for example in & out breaths, for as long as you see fit.

so that is the answer - i should note the breath whenever some disturbance arise ? as opposed to noting the disturbance ?

some issue is i have some trouble noting the breath is there something else i can note ?


(asectism as a theme still will lead me to thnk about advancement and how the ascetisim i did was just wasted - so still seem better to focus on method 1 mainly if not solely)

* the main question is about the de facto micro meditation advice now ..... all else i just write for the record and can be ignored (maybe best ignored) i really dont want to waste your time soo much now , just some final instruction and than i will try it for few days before asking again
Last edited by purple planet on Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Musings about meditation

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purple planet wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:06 pm And more micro - when im in meditation and i hear sounds and other interuptions what do i do with it ? label it ? note it ?
Do as you see fit and what is most comfortable for you.

Thinking, even noting, is somewhat tedious when i train for calm. Generally i use it more so as to cut-off other unwholesome thinking, that usually by focusing on the in & out breaths as to cut it [distracting thoughts] off by noting the in & out breaths instead.
He should develop [contemplation of] the unattractive so as to abandon lust. He should develop good will so as to abandon ill will. He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, ‘I am.’
https://suttacentral.net/an9.1/en/thani ... ight=false 
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