"Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

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jankala
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by jankala »

ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:21 pm
It seems before Buddha awakening He was able to analyse death and rebirth yet without siddhi . It is about developing proper attention which give rise to insight .
Thank you for this interesting sutta quotation.
But isn't this sutta a description of the the Buddha's enlightenment process? We have the refrain,

pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṁ udapādi ñāṇaṁ udapādi paññā udapādi vijjā udapādi āloko udapādi.


which we see in the Dhammacakkhappavattana sutta, no?

PS perhaps recollection of previous lives (pubbe-nivāsanussati) is better described as an abhiñña, rather than iddhi ?
These descriptions, which are the same that the Buddha Vipassī went through in DN 15 for instance, are pre-awakening. They describe the stream-entry of the Bodhisatta(s), which the suttas say they then pursued for culmination into full awakening :)
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by ssasny »

Thank you, yes that must be so.

In the Nagara sutta (SN 12.65) there is the line:

Tassa mayhaṁ, bhikkhave, etadahosi adhigato kho myāyaṁ maggo bodhāya yadidaṁ—

(Then it occurred to me, I've discovered the path to enlightenment, namely..)

followed by the reverse order of paṭiccasamupāda.

But there must have been some further practice for the full realization.

Perhaps what these last few posts demonstrate is
Yo paticcasamuppādaṃ passati so dhammaṃ passati (one who sees dependent origination sees the dhamma)
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by ssasny »

For those who cannot now see the re-birth that is at every moment awaiting beings with avijjā, the dependence of re-birth on avijjā must be accepted on trust. They cannot get beyond temporal succession in this matter and must take it on trust that it is a question of dependence (and not of cause-and-effect)—i.e. that it is not a hypothesis at all, but (for the Buddha) a matter of certainty. But accepting this on trust is not the same as seeing paticcasamuppāda. (Past and future only make their appearance with anvaye ñānam [see NA CA SO [a]), not with dhamme ñānam. 'As it is, so it was, so it will be.' Paticcasamuppāda is just 'As it is'—i.e. the present structure of dependence.)
-Ven Nanavira, footnote to the shorter note on Paṭiccasamuppāda
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Ceisiwr
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:38 pm
I never said that. I’m just conveying his point of view.

But it depends on how you take it. Do you think it is more difficult to experience revulsion towards the current life or one that has yet to come? To me it seems far more taxing and overwhelming to take on the current situation than it is to be concerned about the next. AN 5.57 would agree, not mention many other suttas about what the current experience is subject to. In the end, this life is the one that is most immediate.
I think the view of their being multiple lives helps one to become dispassionate towards all of existence, towards all forms of life or being. AN 5.57 includes being mindful of such lives
(5) “And for the sake of what benefit should a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do’? People engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when one often reflects upon this theme, such misconduct is either completely abandoned or diminished. It is for the sake of this benefit that a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, should often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do...

(5) “This noble disciple reflects thus: ‘I am not the only one who is the owner of one’s kamma, the heir of one’s kamma; who has kamma as one’s origin, kamma as one’s relative, kamma as one’s resort; who will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that one does. All beings that come and go, that pass away and undergo rebirth, are owners of their kamma, heirs of their kamma; all have kamma as their origin, kamma as their relative, kamma as their resort; all will be heirs of whatever kamma, good or bad, that they do.’ As he often reflects on this theme, the path is generated. He pursues this path, develops it, and cultivates it. As he does so, the fetters are entirely abandoned and the underlying tendencies are uprooted."
https://suttacentral.net/an5.57/en/bodh ... ight=false

Venerable Ñāṇavīra is wrong about the traditional model and traditional practice here. To be honest, I don't think he ever truly understood it.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:15 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:38 pm
I never said that. I’m just conveying his point of view.

But it depends on how you take it. Do you think it is more difficult to experience revulsion towards the current life or one that has yet to come? To me it seems far more taxing and overwhelming to take on the current situation than it is to be concerned about the next. AN 5.57 would agree, not mention many other suttas about what the current experience is subject to. In the end, this life is the one that is most immediate.
I think the view of their being multiple lives helps one to become dispassionate towards all of existence, towards all forms of life or being. AN 5.57 includes being mindful of such lives
(5) “And for the sake of what benefit should a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do’? People engage in misconduct by body, speech, and mind. But when one often reflects upon this theme, such misconduct is either completely abandoned or diminished. It is for the sake of this benefit that a woman or a man, a householder or one gone forth, should often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do...

(5) “This noble disciple reflects thus: ‘I am not the only one who is the owner of one’s kamma, the heir of one’s kamma; who has kamma as one’s origin, kamma as one’s relative, kamma as one’s resort; who will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that one does. All beings that come and go, that pass away and undergo rebirth, are owners of their kamma, heirs of their kamma; all have kamma as their origin, kamma as their relative, kamma as their resort; all will be heirs of whatever kamma, good or bad, that they do.’ As he often reflects on this theme, the path is generated. He pursues this path, develops it, and cultivates it. As he does so, the fetters are entirely abandoned and the underlying tendencies are uprooted."
https://suttacentral.net/an5.57/en/bodh ... ight=false

Venerable Ñāṇavīra is wrong about the traditional model and traditional practice here. To be honest, I don't think he ever truly understood it.
Agree that there are many accounts of looking towards the prospect of future lives, but in terms of this mass of suffering, the current life is most pressing, most immediate and the situation through which knowledge and vision can be developed.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:15 pm I'll try to unpack this Nanavira quote for Ceisiwr to the best of my ability.

The puthujjana, taking his apparent 'self' at face value, does not see that he is a victim of upādāna; he does not see that 'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self' (upādānapaccayā bhavo); and he does not see that birth and death depend upon his 'being a self' (bhavapaccayā jāti, and so on). The ariyasāvaka, on the other hand, does see these things, and he sees also their cessation (even though he may not yet have fully realized it); and his seeing of these things is direct. Quite clearly, the idea of re-birth is totally irrelevant here.
Whilst the self is merely a concept, it's not the case that "upādānapaccayā bhavo" means "holding a belief in self". It means "dependent upon clinging, existence". Existence here being in one of the 3 realms. Likewise "bhavapaccayā jāti" does not mean "being a self". It means that dependent upon existence, there will be birth (from the vaginal canal, for humans). These are Bhante's own idiosyncrasies, which are little justified by the texts themselves. Whilst it is true that if there is clinging and if there are self-notions then there will be future birth and death, but this future birth and death isn't simply a "phenomenon" that is "present" in mind or whatnot, which is how I think Bhante would argue it, but are rather to be understood as literal events that occur. Or, to put it another way, they aren't to be understood in the highest manner as said phenomena being present in conciousness. They are realities, not just concepts or as significant phenomena in conciousness. The idea then of re-birth runs through dependent origination. It is completely relevant to insight and awakening. You can see all of the links in dependent origination, because seeing means understanding rather than having them literally flash before your eyes, or as simply phenomenon that are present in conciousness in a timeless and structural manner.

"he does not see that 'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self' (upādānapaccayā bhavo)"

from the condition of upādāna there is existence/becoming' - because this puthujjana is a 'victim of upādāna', he believes he is a self (sakkāyadiṭṭhi) that has been born and will die. (i.e. 'I' was born on such-and-such a date, and 'I' will die) Of course, there is physical birth and death of the body. The problem is assigning it a 'self'/attā.
I've addressed the "upādānapaccayā bhavo" point above. I agree that there is literally being born and dying, and this is what birth and death refers to in dependent origination. I also agree that viewing these things in terms of a self is a problem, because that means clinging to that which is dukkha. As I said however, I don't think these realities cease to be applicable to someone who is awakened because they are to be understood as "phenomena" made "significant" when "presented to conciousness". When the Buddha awakened, he still had to contend with the dhammas of ageing, sickness and death. There was no emotional suffering because of this, but it still was an experience of dukkha. He had to experience this dukkha, because in the past there was ignorance. How can you fully understand all dukkha, if you ignore the objective side to it? That would be a lopsided view of reality. In truth we are to understand the dependent origination of both subjective and objective dukkha. The intrinsic dukkha, and so on.
"The ariyasāvaka, on the other hand, does see these things, and he sees also their cessation"

The 'noble-disciple', stream-enterer, etc., who has removed the fetter of sakkāyadiṭṭhi, no longer holds to the view of a 'self', he has directly seen it.(anattā)
The concepts of 'birth' and 'death' which has plagued the puthujjana and contributed to the whole mass of suffering, has been greatly attenuated.
The subtle conceit 'I am' (avijja), is held by noble disciples except the arahant. This is why there is further existence. But since it has been 'seen' to a great extent, the amount of further existences is vastly reduced. Only for the arahant is birth and death destroyed.

So Ven. Nanavira feels 'the idea of re-birth is totally irrelevant here' because what has been realized is the cause of dukkha in the here and now.
I've already addressed this, so I will simply finish by re-stating that birth and death aren't merely concepts. They are realities.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:23 pm

Agree that there are many accounts of looking towards the prospect of future lives, but in terms of this mass of suffering, the current life is most pressing, most immediate and the situation through which knowledge and vision can be developed.
I would argue that it is also future lives which are also pressing, and that you can't arrive at knowledge and vision without taking them into account.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
ssasny
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by ssasny »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Whilst the self is merely a concept, it's not the case that "upādānapaccayā bhavo" means "holding a belief in self". It means "dependent upon clinging, existence".
Yes, which is basically how I translated it for you. (from the condition of upādāna there is existence/becoming)
Ven. Nanavira is not giving a translation of the Pali phrase here, he is giving a gloss on its implications.

You've made your dissatisfaction with Ven. Nanavira's presentation clear, it's probably not useful continuing on this line any further.
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:48 pm
Whilst the self is merely a concept, it's not the case that "upādānapaccayā bhavo" means "holding a belief in self". It means "dependent upon clinging, existence".
Yes, which is basically how I translated it for you. (from the condition of upādāna there is existence/becoming)
Ven. Nanavira is not giving a translation of the Pali phrase here, he is giving a gloss on its implications.

You've made your dissatisfaction with Ven. Nanavira's presentation clear, it's probably not useful continuing on this line any further.
I know that is what he is doing, and it isn't justified. Upādānapaccayā bhavo does not mean or imply "holding a belief in a self". It means existence and birth as a human or Deva.
You've made your dissatisfaction with Ven. Nanavira's presentation clear, it's probably not useful continuing on this line any further.
That's up to you, of course. Venerable Ñāṇavīra's many idiosyncrasies leave a lot to be desired but I can't deny that his and Venerable Nyanamoli's views have become quite popular as of late, at least with online Buddhists. I image this is in part to Venerable Nyanamoli's success with social media.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by ssasny »

I image this is in part to Venerable Nyanamoli's success with social media.
A snarky thing to say, for sure.

May you be well and happy.
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:55 pm
I image this is in part to Venerable Nyanamoli's success with social media.
A snarky thing to say, for sure.

May you be well and happy.
That wasn't me being snarky. He has had success with his social media, such as Instagram but more so YouTube.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:42 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:23 pm

Agree that there are many accounts of looking towards the prospect of future lives, but in terms of this mass of suffering, the current life is most pressing, most immediate and the situation through which knowledge and vision can be developed.
I would argue that it is also future lives which are also pressing, and that you can't arrive at knowledge and vision without taking them into account.
Sure, but the prospect is pressing because the weight is felt here and now. That is the most immediate context: that what I do here and now actually matters. But even more than that pressing nature is the potential to develop through it here and now. It mattered to Ven. Nanavira that DO be presented as something that close; that each aspect be understood as having an enduring relevance.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:40 pm
ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:15 pm ...The puthujjana...does not see that 'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self' (upādānapaccayā bhavo)....
...it's not the case that "upādānapaccayā bhavo" means "holding a belief in self"...
Well, for 'holding a belief in self', one only needs the word upādāna to represent it, as Nanavira points out in paragraph 10 of NoP
The fundamental upādāna or 'holding' is attavāda (see Majjhima ii,1 <M.i,67>), which is holding a belief in 'self'
The quote is to be understood like this (meaning mapped via font color):

'being a self' depends upon 'holding a belief in self'
(upādānapaccayā bhavo)
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by ssasny »

Yes- that is it.

Thanks for explaining it so clearly with the colors.

I tried to gloss it but you did a much better job.
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Re: "Clearing the Path Continues": Ven. Anālayo's critique of Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:29 pm
Whilst upādāna can mean clinging to a doctrine of self, bhavo doesn’t mean “being a self”.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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