Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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User13866
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Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by User13866 »

I would like to learn & discuss all things related to a monk's living in the forest.

I've tried a little of forest living and can share what little i've learned

1. Mosquitos

a) They hatch in still-water and have a range of up to 2 km.
b) They aren't active in direct hot sunlight, it can dry them up.
c) More bites = lesser reaction. The annoying part about mosquitos is the reaction to their bite. They leave their spit & whatnot in our bodies and it causes an immune response to what is foreign to our body, the body clears it out. As we get more bites, the body becomes more efficient at clearing it due to an abundant cloning of activated b-cells & t-cell memory. I heard it's possible to become completely indifferent to the bites after some 5000 bites but i haven't looked into it much.

Given that monks in Buddha's time probably walked barefoot a lot i imagine they looked for places quite far away from still-water, otherwise it would be brutal as i see it and idk how they would manage.

2. Dangerous Animals (Jaguars, Tigers etc)

a) I saw that in Africa people would gather up some thorn-bushes and fence themselves in for the night using those thorn-bushes. Should be safe.
b) They are generally ambush predators and i've heard that a tiger will generally not attack if one maintains eye contact.

3. Snakes

a) Not a big issue if one walks around with a stick using it to check one's path, and generally watches one's steps but they can be on trees as well.
b) Bites are often dry-bites without poison and if envenomed it is rarely lethal.
c) cobra & viper venom is cytotoxic and will degrade tissue (necrosis) so one will generally survive even if well-envenomed but will probably have to cut off a limb or at least the necrotic part to not die of an infection or tissue rot.

4. Scorpions & Spiders

Scorpions are more of a "hide & wait for prey" kind of hunter, mostly active at night. I imagine one gets bit mostly due to them hiding in one's things at night.

Even the most dangerous scorpion & spider is not lethal to a healthy adult. Their venom is generally neurotoxic and meant to disable much smaller prey than humans and it won't cause tissue death.

5. Centipedes

Are running around looking for insects to eat. Not lethal to healthy adults. Venom is a mix of inflammatory stuff which can cause a severe allergic reaction but is neither neurotoxin nor cytotoxin.
MilG
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by MilG »

Thank you very much
User13866
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by User13866 »

Mosquitos

- can't fly well when it's windy
- High temperatures 27-32C and low temperatures 15-10C make them more or less inactive
- When it's hot they hide in shade
- Don't scratch the itchy bites. It's best to just ignore it and redirect attention to something else like Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha, maybe do metta for mosquitos instead ;)

Mosquitos & the small biting flies are generally similar

Snakes

One should practice good-will towards them
AN 4.67
Ahi Sutta: A Snake

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at Anathapindika's monastery. At that time at Savatthi a certain monk had died bitten by a snake. Thereupon many monks approached the Buddha and having saluted him sat beside him. So seated those monks spoke thus to the Blessed One:

"Bhante (Venerable Sir), a certain monk at Savatthi had died bitten by a snake."

"Assuredly, monks," said the Buddha. "That monk has not suffused with thoughts of loving-kindness (metta) the four royal tribes of snakes. Had he done so, that monk would not have died of snake-bite.

What are the four royal tribes of snakes?

The royal tribe of snakes called Virupakkha, Erapatha, Chabyaputta, and Kanhagotamaka. Monks, that monk, did not suffuse with thoughts of loving-kindness these four royal tribes of snakes, had not done so he would not have died of snake-bite.

Monks, I enjoin you to suffuse with thoughts of loving-kindness these four royal tribes of snakes for your safety, for your preservation and for your protection." So said the Blessed One. Having thus spoken, the Buddha, the "Welcome One" (Sugata), further said (suggesting how they should express themselves:)

1. May I have metta toward Virupakkhas
Toward Erapathas may I have metta
May my metta be toward Chabyaputtas
Toward Kanha-gotamakas also metta may I have.

2. May I have metta toward the footless
And toward bipeds too, my metta may I have
May I have metta toward the quadrupeds
And toward the many footed also, metta may I have.

3. Let not the footless do me harm
Nor those that have two feet
Let not quadrupeds do me harm
Nor those endowed with many feet.

4. All beings, all living creatures,
May good fortune befall them all
May not the least harm on them befall.
"Infinite (in virtue) is the Buddha, infinite is the Dhamma, infinite is the Sangha. Finite are creeping creatures — snakes, scorpions, centipedes, spiders, lizards, and rats. I have guarded myself, I have made my protection. Depart from me, ye beings. I bow down to the Blessed One; and to the seven Supreme Buddhas." [1]

Note
1.
Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusanda, Konagama, Kassapa, Gotama.
:anjali:
User13866
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by User13866 »

Scorpions, Spiders & Centipedes

I think that keeping one's stuff off the ground will minimize chance of them getting into one's things.

I also think that if one is constantly alert & careful not to scare them then these won't bite even if they were to crawl up on one's body. They are just not looking to bite humans afaik.

Cold temperatures

The 3rd watch of the night (02:00-06:00) is the coldest part and it's then good to be awake & physically active to generate bodily heat.

It is also good not to sleep much, the body cools down a lot if one sleeps until sunrise.

In general managing bodily heat, posture & activity, to me seems to be more important than the type of clothing one has.
User13866
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by User13866 »

Cold & Heat

Remembered this
"Who says it is too hot, too cold, too late, and leaves things undone, the opportunities for good go past such men.

"But he who does not regard cold or heat any more than a blade of grass and who does his duties manfully, does not fall away from happiness
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
User13866
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:07 am Scorpions are more of a "hide & wait for prey" kind of hunter, mostly active at night. I imagine one gets bit mostly due to them hiding in one's things at night.

5. Centipedes

Are running around looking for insects to eat. Not lethal to healthy adults. Venom is a mix of inflammatory stuff which can cause a severe allergic reaction but is neither neurotoxin nor cytotoxin.
Should've taken my own advice and kept things off the ground, otherwise it's a matter of time before one gets bit.

Found a huge centipede in my clothing last night, buddy probably thought it was a great place to spend the night.

Thus far i've seen two centipedes and four snakes.

Nothing else going on out here
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Johann
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by Johann »

Those are all no questions for one fit of forest dwelling, and all in the sphere of using the requisite (robe, dwelling) and the rest one has to bear (Asavas to overcome by bearing pain,...). If a tiger is up to eat one (althought an Asava to overcome by avoiding near0 , important metta and satipatthana. As the commentary told, even if not far yet, if good in Satipatthan, by eating till knee: Sotapanna, ... till heart Arahat.

One with fear, worries in regard of lifelihood, health (body), life, isn't fit for Arahat-ship.

A forest-dwell usually requires to be at least on Non-returner path, with perfect Sila, concentration developed and no aspiration to hold on anything in the world: eg. Pabbajito and no more signs of a householder. You are already death, so may one hurry up if clear of it, to gain at least no more birth in the sensual world.
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Mumfie
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by Mumfie »

Johann wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:41 am A forest-dwell usually requires to be at least on Non-returner path
This may be true in the Dispensation of Novice Johann, but in the Dispensation of the Tathāgata one needn't be an anāgāmin to be free of those vices that would make one unfit for solitary forest-dwelling. They are also commonly absent even in the lower classes of sekha, and sometimes even in kalyāna puthujjanas with good habits of mental hygiene.

In the Bhayabheravasutta the vices that impede profitable forest-dwelling number sixteen:

1. impure in bodily conduct.
2. impure in verbal conduct.
3. impure in mental conduct.
4. of wrong livelihood.
5. covetous and full of lust.
6. with a mind of ill will and intentions of hate.
7. overcome by sloth and torpor.
8. overcome with restlessness and unpeaceful in mind.
9. uncertain and doubting.
10. given to self-praise and disparagement of others
11. subject to alarm and terror
12. desirous of gain, honour, and renown
13. lazy and lacking energy.
14. unmindful and not fully aware
15. unconcentrated and with straying mind.
16. being a driveller who lacks wisdom.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Johann
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by Johann »

Those are indeed huge hindrances, as all, not just a talk, of what wise say, good householder.

They seldom get out, because knowing that many would easy act not good for themselves, and it's only for really serious cases on a large scale that they go after the burden to encourage. Instructed therefore are very alert even when seeing from far, or knowing near.

Also, because of such peoples pureness, importand to never ever have only a slight bad thought, not to speak of intentionally wishing to harm or getting lose. Not only no way to ever progress, it has even very quick effects of lose as effect.

If one unattentively and not proper investigated, should have gone for harm or rebuke of such kind, good to seek every way to pardon, at least to be able to walk on.
Last edited by Johann on Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mumfie
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Re: Practicalities of Forest-Dwelling

Post by Mumfie »

Thanks for the reply.

I'll just respond to the one sentence in it that I can understand...
Johann wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:01 pm Also, because of such peoples pureness, importand to never ever have only a slight bad thought, not to speak of intentionally wishing to harm or getting lose.
This too may be the case in the Dispensation of Novice Johann. But matters are otherwise in the Dispensation of the Tathāgata.

There IS a need to speak of the necessity of the forest-gone bhikkhu being already free of wishing harm to others, for this is precisely what the Bhayabheravasutta DOES speak of

On the other hand, there is NO need to speak of a supposed need for him to "never ever have only a slight bad thought". For in what does the practice of such a bhikkhu consist? In just this:
"Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We will be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night we will lie down on the right side in the lion’s pose with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and fully aware, after noting in our minds the time for rising. After rising, in the third watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructive states.'"
A bhikkhu can't devote all his waking hours to purifying his mind of obstructive states if there are no obstructive states for it to be purified of. From this it can be inferred that the forest-gone bhikkhu needn't be someone who "never ever has even a slight bad thought". It is sufficient that he has some dexterity in countering the hindrances etc. when they arise.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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