I’m enlightened

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
Microdose
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:13 am

I’m enlightened

Post by Microdose »

It’s becoming more common now online to hear people claim that they are enlightened and awake

Some claim experiences through meditation, sudden and unexpected awakenings , others through psychedelics or other forms of mystical experiences

It’s not for me to say yes or no, I have had my experiences and some very deep and profound but on still suffer, sometimes I’m confused and have human traits and so on, I’m ok with that


What is Theravada view , majority of claims seem to come from America , in Asia I notice people are generally more humble and in america people seem more forth coming and not shy to speak what’s on their mind , some I noticed are very confident and are very sure they are fully awake and enlightened and speak very assured of themselves



How does one know if other is enlightened

Maybe it’s not important

But it crossed my mind 🤣
SarathW
Posts: 21240
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by SarathW »

This is not new and many people claimed as Arahant in Buddha's time as well.
It depends on what you define as enlightenment.
In Buddhism, enlightenment means eliminating attachment, aversion, and ignorance without any residue.
This happens in gradual stages so there could be people who are partly enlightened.
Even if you observe the five precepts it is the initial stage of the enlightenment.
You have to be partly enlightened to be even in this discussion forum, otherwise, you will not be here.
However, only enlightenment as a Sotapanna will never degenerate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by User13866 »

Microdose wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:16 am What is Theravada view , majority of claims seem to come from America , in Asia I notice people are generally more humble
[...]
This isn't my impression. I've never been to South East Asia but monks trained there have told me things like
- most lay followers who go to temples think they are sotapanna
- half of the world thinks they are enlightened

Also when i was planning to do the anagarika training i was given a brochure saying it takes about 2 years to attain nibbana :rofl:
i imagine many monks think they are getting there after a couple years
Microdose wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:16 am [...]
How does one know if other is enlightened
Well lest one can read minds there is this
Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
some I noticed are very confident and are very sure they are fully awake and enlightened and speak very assured of themselves
I would believe Anagami claims it if they would subject themselves to EEG testing to see if they have eradicated lust & aversion which they had before.

Also if someone can sit in meditation for 7 days or would demonstrate magical powers of an Arahant it would convince me.
Last edited by User13866 on Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by Sam Vara »

Microdose wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:16 am It’s becoming more common now online to hear people claim that they are enlightened and awake

Some claim experiences through meditation, sudden and unexpected awakenings , others through psychedelics or other forms of mystical experiences

It’s not for me to say yes or no, I have had my experiences and some very deep and profound but on still suffer, sometimes I’m confused and have human traits and so on, I’m ok with that


What is Theravada view , majority of claims seem to come from America
Especially from Texas. When they perceive infinite space, it's bigger than other people's infinite space.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by Bundokji »

It is to be expected that such claims are more common among Westerners than Asians, probably due to cultural and historical narrative. Modern Western history is presented through stages, of which the age of "enlightenment" marks the beginning of letting go of old superstitions and embracing science and democracy. The increasing control over the elements was not necessarily accompanied by ending human cruelty, so with a stretch of imagination, one could argue that emptiness itself is empty (post modernism) :tongue:

Setting aside jokes, i am unaware of the term enlightenment being used in the suttas. The closest term that comes to mind is āloka, which is often translated as light or illumination:
"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-3

As to the act of making claims, this is the Buddha's criteria according to the same sutta:
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by equilibrium »

…..It is knowing that you know ….. rather than thinking that you know.
How does one know if other is enlightened
…..there is somewhere in the teachings and it noted that we are all located on a mountain range, in that range, we are all positioned in terms of our own delusion. Those at the bottom have the most delusion, middle ones are in-between and those at the higher levels have few. Yet those at the lower levels cannot see those higher, only those at a higher level can see those on par and below. The Buddha is positioned at the very top.....
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.

So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point, but people have all sorts of ideas.
Microdose wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:16 am Some claim experiences through meditation, sudden and unexpected awakenings , others through psychedelics or other forms of mystical experiences

It’s not for me to say yes or no...
If we use the Sutta Pitaka as our benchmark, we can quite comfortably say no.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by Sam Vara »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,

It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.

So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
Could you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question? :anjali:
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2147
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by JamesTheGiant »

If I was in the Buddha's time, and I heard the Buddha say he was enlightened, to be honest I wouldn't believe him.

Because I've seen so many mentally ill people claim enlightenment, so many deluded people claim sotapanna, that I just can't take it seriously.

This is a problem, that I wouldn't believe the Buddha!
Maybe if people I respect took him seriously, or teachers I respect talked of him positively, then I would believe his claims and follow his teachings.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:48 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,

It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.

So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
Could you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question? :anjali:
Here's a collection of Suttas I prepared earlier: viewtopic.php?t=10215

Note what is being done, and just as importantly, what is not being done, when the Dhamma Eye arises.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by Sam Vara »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:34 am Greetings,
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:48 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,

It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.

So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
Could you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question? :anjali:
Here's a collection of Suttas I prepared earlier: viewtopic.php?t=10215

Note what is being done, and just as importantly, what is not being done, when the Dhamma Eye arises.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ah, yes, I remember this from before. Excellent stuff, and I look forward to re-acquainting myself... :anjali:
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:39 am Especially from Texas. When they perceive infinite space, it's bigger than other people's infinite space.
Really , most of them are from Texas ? :roll:
How is it actually their Infinite space appear bigger ? :thinking:
No bashing No gossiping
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.

So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point, but people have all sorts of ideas.
Why do you say that the mess is in the west ? Do you mind summarise the point how the suttas bridging the gap ?


:thanks:
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:24 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:39 am Especially from Texas. When they perceive infinite space, it's bigger than other people's infinite space.
Really , most of them are from Texas ? :roll:
How is it actually their Infinite space appear bigger ? :thinking:
It's just a little joke about Texans, asahi.

https://history.howstuffworks.com/ameri ... -texas.htm
User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am

Re: I’m enlightened

Post by purple planet »

Maybe a useful way to see this is to think how you know someone is not enlightned/sothapanna for sure .... i thought though this might derail this thread a bit so was thinking of making another thread about that line of thinking but than wondered if we write this things if it might be that people who claim enlightnment wont see this advice and use it to fool others (and i know there is at least one person on this forum that claims to be a sothapanna (at least) and i do not think he is (though cant tell for sure cause i am not a sothapanna myself) and giving bad advice to other people here ) so not sure if i wanted to open a new thread for it

Some ideas : if he kills his not a sothapanna ? if he uses drugs his not a sothapanna ? if he drinks alcohol his not a sothapanna ? if he lies his not a sothapanna ? engages in idle chatter ? Break the 5 precepts his not a sothapanna ? break the 8 precepts his not a sothapanna ? etc etc ....


** also a nice zen story i encountered which i will take this opportunity to share (and butcher it on the way) is of a zen monk telling his master "master i am fully enlightened , there is no I , there is no self" than the master hits him with a stick and the student gets very angry and red and than the master asks him "if there is no self , who got angry ?"
Last edited by purple planet on Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Post Reply