It’s becoming more common now online to hear people claim that they are enlightened and awake
Some claim experiences through meditation, sudden and unexpected awakenings , others through psychedelics or other forms of mystical experiences
It’s not for me to say yes or no, I have had my experiences and some very deep and profound but on still suffer, sometimes I’m confused and have human traits and so on, I’m ok with that
What is Theravada view , majority of claims seem to come from America , in Asia I notice people are generally more humble and in america people seem more forth coming and not shy to speak what’s on their mind , some I noticed are very confident and are very sure they are fully awake and enlightened and speak very assured of themselves
How does one know if other is enlightened
Maybe it’s not important
But it crossed my mind
I’m enlightened
Re: I’m enlightened
This is not new and many people claimed as Arahant in Buddha's time as well.
It depends on what you define as enlightenment.
In Buddhism, enlightenment means eliminating attachment, aversion, and ignorance without any residue.
This happens in gradual stages so there could be people who are partly enlightened.
Even if you observe the five precepts it is the initial stage of the enlightenment.
You have to be partly enlightened to be even in this discussion forum, otherwise, you will not be here.
However, only enlightenment as a Sotapanna will never degenerate.
It depends on what you define as enlightenment.
In Buddhism, enlightenment means eliminating attachment, aversion, and ignorance without any residue.
This happens in gradual stages so there could be people who are partly enlightened.
Even if you observe the five precepts it is the initial stage of the enlightenment.
You have to be partly enlightened to be even in this discussion forum, otherwise, you will not be here.
However, only enlightenment as a Sotapanna will never degenerate.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: I’m enlightened
This isn't my impression. I've never been to South East Asia but monks trained there have told me things like
- most lay followers who go to temples think they are sotapanna
- half of the world thinks they are enlightened
Also when i was planning to do the anagarika training i was given a brochure saying it takes about 2 years to attain nibbana
i imagine many monks think they are getting there after a couple years
Well lest one can read minds there is this
Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I would believe Anagami claims it if they would subject themselves to EEG testing to see if they have eradicated lust & aversion which they had before.some I noticed are very confident and are very sure they are fully awake and enlightened and speak very assured of themselves
Also if someone can sit in meditation for 7 days or would demonstrate magical powers of an Arahant it would convince me.
Last edited by User13866 on Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: I’m enlightened
Especially from Texas. When they perceive infinite space, it's bigger than other people's infinite space.Microdose wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:16 am It’s becoming more common now online to hear people claim that they are enlightened and awake
Some claim experiences through meditation, sudden and unexpected awakenings , others through psychedelics or other forms of mystical experiences
It’s not for me to say yes or no, I have had my experiences and some very deep and profound but on still suffer, sometimes I’m confused and have human traits and so on, I’m ok with that
What is Theravada view , majority of claims seem to come from America
Re: I’m enlightened
It is to be expected that such claims are more common among Westerners than Asians, probably due to cultural and historical narrative. Modern Western history is presented through stages, of which the age of "enlightenment" marks the beginning of letting go of old superstitions and embracing science and democracy. The increasing control over the elements was not necessarily accompanied by ending human cruelty, so with a stretch of imagination, one could argue that emptiness itself is empty (post modernism)
Setting aside jokes, i am unaware of the term enlightenment being used in the suttas. The closest term that comes to mind is āloka, which is often translated as light or illumination:
As to the act of making claims, this is the Buddha's criteria according to the same sutta:
Setting aside jokes, i am unaware of the term enlightenment being used in the suttas. The closest term that comes to mind is āloka, which is often translated as light or illumination:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#fn-3"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'
As to the act of making claims, this is the Buddha's criteria according to the same sutta:
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
- equilibrium
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Re: I’m enlightened
…..It is knowing that you know ….. rather than thinking that you know.
…..there is somewhere in the teachings and it noted that we are all located on a mountain range, in that range, we are all positioned in terms of our own delusion. Those at the bottom have the most delusion, middle ones are in-between and those at the higher levels have few. Yet those at the lower levels cannot see those higher, only those at a higher level can see those on par and below. The Buddha is positioned at the very top.....How does one know if other is enlightened
- retrofuturist
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Re: I’m enlightened
Greetings,
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point, but people have all sorts of ideas.
Metta,
Paul.
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point, but people have all sorts of ideas.
If we use the Sutta Pitaka as our benchmark, we can quite comfortably say no.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: I’m enlightened
Could you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
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Re: I’m enlightened
If I was in the Buddha's time, and I heard the Buddha say he was enlightened, to be honest I wouldn't believe him.
Because I've seen so many mentally ill people claim enlightenment, so many deluded people claim sotapanna, that I just can't take it seriously.
This is a problem, that I wouldn't believe the Buddha!
Maybe if people I respect took him seriously, or teachers I respect talked of him positively, then I would believe his claims and follow his teachings.
Because I've seen so many mentally ill people claim enlightenment, so many deluded people claim sotapanna, that I just can't take it seriously.
This is a problem, that I wouldn't believe the Buddha!
Maybe if people I respect took him seriously, or teachers I respect talked of him positively, then I would believe his claims and follow his teachings.
- retrofuturist
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Re: I’m enlightened
Greetings,
Note what is being done, and just as importantly, what is not being done, when the Dhamma Eye arises.
Metta,
Paul.
Here's a collection of Suttas I prepared earlier: viewtopic.php?t=10215Sam Vara wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:48 amCould you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
Note what is being done, and just as importantly, what is not being done, when the Dhamma Eye arises.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: I’m enlightened
Ah, yes, I remember this from before. Excellent stuff, and I look forward to re-acquainting myself...retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:34 am Greetings,
Here's a collection of Suttas I prepared earlier: viewtopic.php?t=10215Sam Vara wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:48 amCould you give us a few pointers to the suttas in question?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am Greetings,
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point
Note what is being done, and just as importantly, what is not being done, when the Dhamma Eye arises.
Metta,
Paul.
Re: I’m enlightened
Really , most of them are from Texas ?
How is it actually their Infinite space appear bigger ?
No bashing No gossiping
Re: I’m enlightened
Why do you say that the mess is in the west ? Do you mind summarise the point how the suttas bridging the gap ?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:26 am
It's an interesting predicament here in the West. We're told the practice is to follow the Noble Eightfold Path, yet the path only arises at the point of stream-winning.
So how to bridge that gap from puthujjana to the path? The Suttas are quite clear on this point, but people have all sorts of ideas.
No bashing No gossiping
Re: I’m enlightened
- purple planet
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Re: I’m enlightened
Maybe a useful way to see this is to think how you know someone is not enlightned/sothapanna for sure .... i thought though this might derail this thread a bit so was thinking of making another thread about that line of thinking but than wondered if we write this things if it might be that people who claim enlightnment wont see this advice and use it to fool others (and i know there is at least one person on this forum that claims to be a sothapanna (at least) and i do not think he is (though cant tell for sure cause i am not a sothapanna myself) and giving bad advice to other people here ) so not sure if i wanted to open a new thread for it
Some ideas : if he kills his not a sothapanna ? if he uses drugs his not a sothapanna ? if he drinks alcohol his not a sothapanna ? if he lies his not a sothapanna ? engages in idle chatter ? Break the 5 precepts his not a sothapanna ? break the 8 precepts his not a sothapanna ? etc etc ....
** also a nice zen story i encountered which i will take this opportunity to share (and butcher it on the way) is of a zen monk telling his master "master i am fully enlightened , there is no I , there is no self" than the master hits him with a stick and the student gets very angry and red and than the master asks him "if there is no self , who got angry ?"
Some ideas : if he kills his not a sothapanna ? if he uses drugs his not a sothapanna ? if he drinks alcohol his not a sothapanna ? if he lies his not a sothapanna ? engages in idle chatter ? Break the 5 precepts his not a sothapanna ? break the 8 precepts his not a sothapanna ? etc etc ....
** also a nice zen story i encountered which i will take this opportunity to share (and butcher it on the way) is of a zen monk telling his master "master i am fully enlightened , there is no I , there is no self" than the master hits him with a stick and the student gets very angry and red and than the master asks him "if there is no self , who got angry ?"
Last edited by purple planet on Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.