Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Ceisiwr
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Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Interestingly, Ledi Sayadaw argues that one cannot really see the momentariness of dhammas, or at least mental dhammas, and that it’s foolish to do so. Rather, it’s best to focus on impermanence generally which momentariness attempts to drive home.
The fleeting nature of phenomena is, therefore, aptly compared in the scriptures to a flash of lightning. However, the rapidity of the occurrence of mental phenomena is far greater than that. Their arising and vanishing may even be reckoned in hundreds of thousands of times within a flash of lightning. The rapidity is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, it is not advisable to make such subtle phenomena the object of one’s contemplation. Try as one might, these phenomena will not be comprehended even after contemplating for a hundred or a thousand years. The meditator who tries this will not gain a single ray of insight, but will be beset by more befuddlement and despair. The scriptures say that mental phenomena take place billions and trillions of times within the blink of an eye, a flash of lightning, or the snap of your fingers. Now, the duration of the blink of an eye itself is so fleeting that attempting to contemplate the occurrence of mental phenomena to the billionth or trillionth part of that duration becomes sheer folly. Therefore, one should be satisfied with comprehending the unreliable and transient characteristic of all phenomena, which, after all, is the main purpose.

As for the exact nature, i.e., the swiftness, of mental phenomena, the understanding of which is the domain of the wisdom of the All-knowing Buddha, one has to accept the authority of the scriptures. Any talk about contemplating the three characteristics of mental phenomena is mere humbug. It is never based on practice, but only on hearsay from the scriptures. If someone were to try it, it would be a far cry from insight.
https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp426s_Ledi_ ... -Light.pdf

Thoughts?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

My thoughts are that what Ledi Sayadaw says is different to what Mahasi Sayadaw says.

See this old post / topic : viewtopic.php?p=164576#p164576

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by pegembara »

The fleeting nature of phenomena is, therefore, aptly compared in the scriptures to a flash of lightning. However, the rapidity of the occurrence of mental phenomena is far greater than that. Their arising and vanishing may even be reckoned in hundreds of thousands of times within a flash of lightning. The rapidity is beyond human comprehension. Therefore, it is not advisable to make such subtle phenomena the object of one’s contemplation. Try as one might, these phenomena will not be comprehended even after contemplating for a hundred or a thousand years. The meditator who tries this will not gain a single ray of insight, but will be beset by more befuddlement and despair. The scriptures say that mental phenomena take place billions and trillions of times within the blink of an eye, a flash of lightning, or the snap of your fingers. Now, the duration of the blink of an eye itself is so fleeting that attempting to contemplate the occurrence of mental phenomena to the billionth or trillionth part of that duration becomes sheer folly. Therefore, one should be satisfied with comprehending the unreliable and transient characteristic of all phenomena, which, after all, is the main purpose.

As for the exact nature, i.e., the swiftness, of mental phenomena, the understanding of which is the domain of the wisdom of the All-knowing Buddha, one has to accept the authority of the scriptures. Any talk about contemplating the three characteristics of mental phenomena is mere humbug. It is never based on practice, but only on hearsay from the scriptures. If someone were to try it, it would be a far cry from insight.
If you don't experience this, you don't. Otherwise, it's just your imagination and not direct experience.
You are simply not following the advice of the Buddha to come and see, to experience directly.
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by BrokenBones »

I must admit that Ledi Sayadaw's comments on momentariness come as a surprise.

I'd always assumed he was squarely in the 'experience momentariness' camp; that seems to be the impression given by many.

I guess that people weren't paying close enough attention to his actual teachings.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:44 am I must admit that Ledi Sayadaw's comments on momentariness come as a surprise.

I'd always assumed he was squarely in the 'experience momentariness' camp; that seems to be the impression given by many.

I guess that people weren't paying close enough attention to his actual teachings.
Yes i found it interesting too.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by nirodh27 »

It is a surprise, and actually an unsettling one since Mahasi, a direct disciple, spread, from what I've read here now, a different view.

At the same time:
Therefore, one should be satisfied with comprehending the unreliable and transient characteristic of all phenomena, which, after all, is the main purpose.
Any talk about contemplating the three characteristics of mental phenomena is mere humbug. It is never based on practice, but only on hearsay from the scriptures.
worries me, since mental phenomena is not just the one supposed here that "take place billions and trillions of times within the blink of an eye, a flash of lightning, or the snap of your fingers", but it is what happens in the mind and those events can be seen and must be seen arise, persist and fall away in the mind so that one can see the drawbacks, the allure and, hopefully, the escape: especially consciousness is fast, but even his change can be seen just like in the monkey example. It changes very fast, arising and passing away, but it can be noticed and that is a crucial building block of the exploration of the drawbacks. This is the mental phenomena that matters to get dispassion and it is totally observable.

Maybe Ledi Sayadaw will call this with another name. If anicca cannot be seen in mental phenomena as I intend it from the suttas, that would be a really big problem. Because that would mean that for what regards the mind, we can only comprehend (intellectually? by authority?) the transient nature from the scriptures, but without direct observation. But the EBT are all about observing mental phenomena directly to gain insight into his nature, just like it is done for the body.
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Post by sunnat »

Firstly it is the (subtle) rapidity of mental phenomena that ‘is not advisable to make … the object of one’s contemplation’ and not mental phenomena per se.

Secondly, it is talk that is humbug. Talk is not based on practice. As explained the swiftness can only be seen by The Buddha. His authority is key, not talk. Just talk about the ‘exact nature’ is not based on practice. Attempts to talk about it is based on ‘hearsay’ and not insight. Insight is based on practice.
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Eko Care »

I think this Ledi Sayadaw's quote is about the people who try to see the actual speed of impermanence.

I remember the Abhidhamma Analyzer Ven. Maggavihari (who has extensively learned Ledi Sayadaw's manuals) discussed the following points.
  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual rupa kalapas. The requirement is understanding characteristics of dhammas."
  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual speed of impermanence. The requirement is understanding impermanence."
  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual present moment. No mind-moment can see itself. When we see the present moment, it has already been past. There are 3 types of present moments mentioned in Patisambhidamagga and 2 of 3 are considerably long present-moments."
1. Khana paccuppanna (present instant)
2. Santati paccuppanna (a generation of instants)
3. Addha paccuppanna (present life)
  • The phrase "paccuppannam ca yo dhammam tattha tattha vipassati" found in Bhaddekaratta sutta does not only mean the 1st type of present moment.
According to patisambhidamagga, "the contemplation of Udaya vaya (arising and passing)" is not just seeing the arising and passing.

Udaya is to be understood in terms of Paccayasamudaya (arising of causes) and the Nibbattilakkhana (Characteristic of arising) both.
There are 4 ways for Paccayasamudaya and 1 way for Nibbattilakkhana.
So 5 ways for Udaya and 5 ways for Vaya.

In order to see Udaya-vaya of Pancakkhanda, there are 50 ways to be concerned. (5*5*2 = 50)

eg:
Udaya of Rupa:
1. Avijjā samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Ignorance)
2. Tanhā samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Craving)
3. Kamma samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Kamma)
4. Ahāra samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Nutriement)
5. Nibbatti lakkhanā (the characteristic of arising)

Vaya of Rupa is also taken in the same way but replacing "Samudaya" with "Nirodha" and "Nibbatti" with "Vipariṇāma".

For Vedana, Sanna and Sankhara, the 4th point becomes "Phassa".

For Vinnana, the 4th point becomes "Namrupa".
Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi - Udayabbayañāṇaniddesa:

Kathaṃ paccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṃ? Jātaṃ rūpaṃ paccuppannaṃ, tassa nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ udayo, vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ vayo, anupassanā ñāṇaṃ. Jātā vedanā…pe… jātā saññā… jātā saṅkhārā… jātaṃ viññāṇaṃ… jātaṃ cakkhu…pe… jāto bhavo paccuppanno, tassa nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ udayo, vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ vayo, anupassanā ñāṇaṃ.

Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto paññāsa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Vedanākkhandhassa…pe… saññākkhandhassa…pe… saṅkhārakkhandhassa…pe… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto dasa lakkhaṇāni passati. Vedanākkhandhassa…pe… saññākkhandhassa… saṅkhārakkhandhassa… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Āhārasamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Āhāranirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Phassasamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Phassanirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Saññākkhandhassa…pe… saṅkhārakkhandhassa…pe… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā viññāṇasamudayotipaccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nāmarūpasamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto imāni pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto imāni pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni paññāsa lakkhaṇāni passati. Taṃ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṃ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati – “Paccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṃ”. Rūpakkhandho āhārasamudayo. Vedanā, saññā, saṅkhārā – tayo khandhā phassasamudayā. Viññāṇakkhandho nāmarūpasamudayo.
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Spiny Norman »

It's pretty obvious to me that my mental state is continually changing, so I don't get the OP quote.
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by mikenz66 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:45 pm It's pretty obvious to me that my mental state is continually changing, so I don't get the OP quote.
My understanding is that Ledi Sayadaw is talking about not being able to see change at the speed indicated in the Commenaries - billions of mind moments per second. The change that, as I understand it, you (or Mahasi Sayadaw) is talking about is much slower than that. As you indicate, seeing changes on the fractions of a second level is not particularly difficult.

My recollection is that Pa Auk Sayadaw does indicate that it is possible to discern individual mind moments, but I have not studied his teachings in details so I may be misremembering.

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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:09 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:45 pm It's pretty obvious to me that my mental state is continually changing, so I don't get the OP quote.
My understanding is that Ledi Sayadaw is talking about not being able to see change at the speed indicated in the Commenaries - billions of mind moments per second. The change that, as I understand it, you (or Mahasi Sayadaw) is talking about is much slower than that. As you indicate, seeing changes on the fractions of a second level is not particularly difficult.

My recollection is that Pa Auk Sayadaw does indicate that it is possible to discern individual mind moments, but I have not studied his teachings in details so I may be misremembering.

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Mike
Clearly we can't notice billionths of a second (whatever), so it seems like pointless speculation to me.
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by mikenz66 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:39 am Clearly we can't notice billionths of a second (whatever), so it seems like pointless speculation to me.
Obviously for us it is not directly discernible, which I think is Ledi Sayadaw's point. The approach of Sayadaw Mahasi, etc, doesn't seem to be about discerning individual mind moments, so I don't see any contradiction between them.

I'd be interested in input from Pa Auk Sayadaw followers, since, as I said, I believe he teaches the discernment of individual mind moments, though presumably that requires jhana mastery.

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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:50 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:39 am Clearly we can't notice billionths of a second (whatever), so it seems like pointless speculation to me.
Obviously for us it is not directly discernible, which I think is Ledi Sayadaw's point. The approach of Sayadaw Mahasi, etc, doesn't seem to be about discerning individual mind moments, so I don't see any contradiction between them.

I'd be interested in input from Pa Auk Sayadaw followers, since, as I said, I believe he teaches the discernment of individual mind moments, though presumably that requires jhana mastery.

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Mike
His point seems to me more that it is directly discernible, but only for Buddhas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:03 pm His point seems to me more that it is directly discernible, but only for Buddhas.
It's a point that seems to be based on faith in Abhidhamma, rather than wisdom of what the Buddha taught.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ledi Sayadaw on Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:05 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:03 pm His point seems to me more that it is directly discernible, but only for Buddhas.
It's a point that seems to be based on faith in Abhidhamma, rather than wisdom of what the Buddha taught.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You don't have to be an Ābhidhammika to accept that dhammas are momentary. Mahāyānists do too, and I think suttas like SN 22.37, SN 22.38, SN 22.97 and SN 35.93 require it. If there are no substances in the world, how can dhammas be anything but momentary?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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