Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
ToVincent
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by ToVincent »

Buddha was a Saka (Śaka).
https://sanskrit.inria.fr/MW/259.html#zaakya

https://justpaste.it/Buddha-Saka
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thomaslaw
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by thomaslaw »

The hometown (Kapilavastu) of the Buddha was either in Tilaurakot in Nepal or Piprahwa in Uttar Pradesh, India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapilavas ... ient_city)

Bhikkhu Dhammika in his guide book, Middle Land, Middle Way - A Pilgrims' Guide to the Buddha's India, supports the Indian site was the exact location of the hometown of the Buddha, which I disagree.

I visited the two sites many years ago. I think it may be better to consider both sites were all the areas of the ancient city, Kapilavastu, but the Nepalese site was the main palace.

What do you think?
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pilgrim
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by pilgrim »

Kusala wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:34 am
I'm a big fan of Ven. Dhammika, but I have to disagree with him. India and Nepal didn't exist during the Buddha's time. Saying the Buddha was Indian or Nepali is akin to saying King Arthur was English or Welsh or Cornish or whatever...
I'm guessing you didn't read the article because Ven Dhammika makes the same point, only in greater detail.
Milinda
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Milinda »

Probably he descendend from that indo-aryan tribes who conquered India to the 'dalits'.

In fact the word Sakya and Schytia, they seem to have some similarities.

And the origin from the Schytias it was today Ukraine steppes, according to greeks and romans historians.

Well it's a huge territory.
But sure a mixture perhaps from protoslavs and protoiranians with huns??

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thomaslaw
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by thomaslaw »

According to the Pāli Sn 1.7 Vasala-sutta and its Chinese versions, SA 102 and ASA 268, the Buddha is regarded as 'outcaste' (vasala/vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brāhmaṇa:

Sn 1.7: ‘ “tatr’ eva samaṇaka, tatr’ eva vasalaka tiṭṭhāhī” ti.’ (Sn 21). SA 102: ‘住。住。領群特。慎勿近我門。’ (CSA iii, 147; FSA 3, 1880; T 2, 28b). ASA 268: ‘住住旃陀羅。莫來至此。’ (T2, 467c).
(lingqunte 領群特 = vasala/vasala-ka; Zhantuolo 旃陀羅 = caṇḍāla).

The texts describe in common how a Brāhmaṇa, while performing the fire ritual with a food offering in his house, sees the Buddha coming at a distance, and says to him, “You are an outcaste, do not approach”.

See p. 375 in Choong Mun-keat "A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Brahmana Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the priestly Brahmanas", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 19, issue 03, July 2009 (Cambridge University Press), pp. 371-382.

It seems the Buddha was not an Aryan at that time.
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Johann
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Johann »

As far as traceable, yet not really something that "matters", his clan was related to the Indo-(A)iran-tripe of the Kambos, Kamboja (todays Pakistan, Afganistan), who over time moved more and more west-south-west.

https://www.kambojsociety.com/who-are-kamboj.html

But as the Subline Buddha told, "history" (kamma) investigations by thinking causes people easy to get crazy. Yet, the Jatakas are maybe more useful in drawing attention to kammic matters then to seek depending origination in the sensual sphere.

And it's truely the last possible draw of relation, if applying it to a geographical place, border.

Still better then all, when remembering the occasion once met, as doubt then fades.
Last edited by Johann on Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Johann »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm According to the Pāli Sn 1.7 Vasala-sutta and its Chinese versions, SA 102 and ASA 268, the Buddha is regarded as 'outcaste' (vasala/vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brāhmaṇa:

Sn 1.7: ‘ “tatr’ eva samaṇaka, tatr’ eva vasalaka tiṭṭhāhī” ti.’ (Sn 21). SA 102: ‘住。住。領群特。慎勿近我門。’ (CSA iii, 147; FSA 3, 1880; T 2, 28b). ASA 268: ‘住住旃陀羅。莫來至此。’ (T2, 467c).
(lingqunte 領群特 = vasala/vasala-ka; Zhantuolo 旃陀羅 = caṇḍāla).

The texts describe in common how a Brāhmaṇa, while performing the fire ritual with a food offering in his house, sees the Buddha coming at a distance, and says to him, “You are an outcaste, do not approach”.

See p. 375 in Choong Mun-keat "A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Brahmana Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the priestly Brahmanas", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 19, issue 03, July 2009 (Cambridge University Press), pp. 371-382.

It seems the Buddha was not an Aryan at that time.
It seems that good householder got the point of the Sutta in two ways wrong. People having left home are regarded as outcast by uninformed Brahmans, householder, as they aren't pleased with renouncing. The second point doubles the f-act of deeds making qualities, names.
Yet, the "ironic" point there was that the Brahman did address one of regarded highest cast by birth as well.
Last edited by Johann on Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kusala
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Kusala »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:05 pm He is indian.. maybe nepali by birth but indian by residency.. nepal born indian but i think nepal was not there before and all was india
You do realize that "India" was created by the British Raj, right?
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Milinda »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:19 pm According to the Pāli Sn 1.7 Vasala-sutta and its Chinese versions, SA 102 and ASA 268, the Buddha is regarded as 'outcaste' (vasala/vasala-ka 'wicked outcaste') by a Brāhmaṇa:

Sn 1.7: ‘ “tatr’ eva samaṇaka, tatr’ eva vasalaka tiṭṭhāhī” ti.’ (Sn 21). SA 102: ‘住。住。領群特。慎勿近我門。’ (CSA iii, 147; FSA 3, 1880; T 2, 28b). ASA 268: ‘住住旃陀羅。莫來至此。’ (T2, 467c).
(lingqunte 領群特 = vasala/vasala-ka; Zhantuolo 旃陀羅 = caṇḍāla).

The texts describe in common how a Brāhmaṇa, while performing the fire ritual with a food offering in his house, sees the Buddha coming at a distance, and says to him, “You are an outcaste, do not approach”.

See p. 375 in Choong Mun-keat "A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Brahmana Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the priestly Brahmanas", Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 19, issue 03, July 2009 (Cambridge University Press), pp. 371-382.

It seems the Buddha was not an Aryan at that time.
Probably most vedic tradition difamates Buddha. Because Buddha denies Brahma-God-Soul teachings.
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mikenz66
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kusala wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:43 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:05 pm He is indian.. maybe nepali by birth but indian by residency.. nepal born indian but i think nepal was not there before and all was india
You do realize that "India" was created by the British Raj, right?
Yes. This question seems a bit like asking whether some person living 2500 years ago were Mexican or Guatemalan.

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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by TRobinson465 »

He was Shakyan. Saying whether he's Nepalese or indian is like saying Julius Caesar was Italian and not Roman or fighting over what the ancient Frank's and visigoths were, German?. Nepal and India didn't exist back then. Ethnically he was what we would consider Nepalese or maybe northern Indian. But it's not like the ethnicity suddenly changes once u cross the modern border.
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by DNS »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:02 am He was Shakyan. Saying whether he's Nepalese or indian is like saying Julius Caesar was Italian and not Roman or fighting over what the ancient Frank's and visigoths were, German?. Nepal and India didn't exist back then. Ethnically he was what we would consider Nepalese or maybe northern Indian. But it's not like the ethnicity suddenly changes once u cross the modern border.
Yes, I think this is what the question and article by Ven. Dhammika is about. It's not about "what is the citizenship of the Buddha?" Of course there was no nation known as "India" or "Nepal" back then. It's more about the ethnicity and possibly the race.

Even just in the past century, there were thousands, maybe millions of ethnic-racial Indians (India) who were born in Africa and lived all their life in Africa. When Idi Amin kicked them out of Uganda, many were confused and didn't know how they would live in India. India was like a foreign country to them.
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Microdose »

DNS wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:19 pm New Dhamma Wiki article by Shravasti Dhammika.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... epalese%3F

We've had our fair share of Nepali-nationalists who join DW to make their case and then leave.
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rajitha7
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by rajitha7 »

So back in 2019, the Ariyakammattana organisation launched legal action against the British Government.
Ariyakammattana claims that officials and agents who functioned under the British colonial rule were in the Indian subcontinent deliberately and systematically altered the sacred places of “Buddha Gothama,” who is the founder of Theravada Buddhism, and instead introduced incorrect sacred sites to the public.

The subsequent spread of misinformation has, and continues to, mislead the global Theravada Buddhist community into revering those incorrect places as sacred sites. Rectification of this error is important also to Hindus and Jains, as some of their ancient holy sites in India were not only misappropriated by the erstwhile colonial officials but are also wrongly associated with the present-day Buddhists.

For more information
[email protected]
However, in 2021 the British courts ruled the laws are "inadequate" to take the matter into consideration removed the case from its courts. The Ariayakammattana then took the case to European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) .

Although it appears the British now wants to leave the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) as well.



References:
- The British Colonialists Spread Misinformation About the Buddha, a lawsuit claims (English)
- The followup - A court case filed by Ariayakammattana Vs British Government at European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) (Sinhala)
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Dan74
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Dan74 »

The issue is nationalism and chauvinism, both of which are manifestations of the clinging to the notion of self, exactly what the Buddha counselled us to abandon.
_/|\_
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