Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DNS
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Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by DNS »

New Dhamma Wiki article by Shravasti Dhammika.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... epalese%3F

We've had our fair share of Nepali-nationalists who join DW to make their case and then leave.
Microdose
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Microdose »

Buddha is the awareness that knows the real from the unreal

National identity is a man made concept so therefore unreal

Also 2500 years ago there was no india or Nepal 🤣
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by confusedlayman »

He is indian.. maybe nepali by birth but indian by residency.. nepal born indian but i think nepal was not there before and all was india
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by SarathW »

Sri Lankan!
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Goofaholix »

Actually there are some theories that the Shakya clan where Scythian/Saka ethnicity.
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Kusala »

DNS wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:19 pm New Dhamma Wiki article by Shravasti Dhammika.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... epalese%3F

We've had our fair share of Nepali-nationalists who join DW to make their case and then leave.
I'm a big fan of Ven. Dhammika, but I have to disagree with him. India and Nepal didn't exist during the Buddha's time. Saying the Buddha was Indian or Nepali is akin to saying King Arthur was English or Welsh or Cornish or whatever...
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by DNS »

Kusala wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:34 am I'm a big fan of Ven. Dhammika, but I have to disagree with him. India and Nepal didn't exist during the Buddha's time. Saying the Buddha was Indian or Nepali is akin to saying King Arthur was English or Welsh or Cornish or whatever...
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Goofaholix »

Kusala wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:34 am I'm a big fan of Ven. Dhammika, but I have to disagree with him. India and Nepal didn't exist during the Buddha's time. Saying the Buddha was Indian or Nepali is akin to saying King Arthur was English or Welsh or Cornish or whatever...
He was Romano-British, the real one not the one in stories.

While modern borders are irrelevant ethnic groupings are, whether we have enough historical information to establish the Buddhas ethnicity is another question.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Akusala »

It depends. We know that the Buddha was born in Lumbini, which is located in modern-day Nepal, and raised in Kapilvastu, which may have been either in what is present-day Tilaurakot, Nepal or Piprahwa, India. However, he did spend most of his "teaching career" roaming around India. So, by birth, you can argue he was a Nepalese but by lifestyle/choice, he was a resident of India as he lived there most of his life.

The distinction is probably irrelevant because at the time of the Buddha, Nepal and India was part of the same cultural sphere (and still is to a certain extent). People at that time probably did not make this sort of distinction.
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Eko Care
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Eko Care »

S. Dhammaika is an untrustworthy writer who is famous for constituting speculations.

His earlier attempt:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/coloph ... a-thera/97
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by thomaslaw »

Eko Care wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:40 am S. Dhammaika is an untrustworthy writer who is famous for constituting speculations.

His earlier attempt:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/coloph ... a-thera/97
What is your point here?
:jumping:
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The short answer: “Yes.”
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by thomaslaw »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:24 pm The short answer: “Yes.”
"Yes" what?
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:49 am "Yes" what?
Yes, the Buddha was Indian or Nepalese.
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Re: Was the Buddha Indian or Nepalese?

Post by Eko Care »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:01 am
Eko Care wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:40 am S. Dhammaika is an untrustworthy writer who is famous for constituting speculations.

His earlier attempt:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/coloph ... a-thera/97
What is your point here?
:jumping:
Review of Shravasti Dhammika's book The Broken Buddha.

Apart from the ridiculous and angry conjecture in his his notorious book, he mentioned the below and got refused by many other scholars.
"The Broken Buddha: Critical Reflections on Theravada and a Plea for a New Buddhism" by S. Dhammika:
“Even Buddhaghosa did not really believe that Theravada practice could lead to Nirvana. His Visuddhimagga is supposed to be a detailed, step by step guide to enlightenment. And yet in the postscript […] he says he hopes that the merit he has earned by writing the Vishuddhimagga will allow him to be reborn in heaven, abide there until Metteyya (Maitreya) appears, hear his teaching and then attain enlightenment.”
What other scholars have said (including an ancient king):
"Visuddhimárga-mahásannaya" by King Parakramabahu (1234 - 1269 CE):

"The Epilogue(/colophon) is written by Acariya Buddhagosa’s Student Venerable Buddhamitta.

[King Parakramabahu-II of Kingdom of Dambadeniya had written a Sinhala glossary (Sannaya) to Visuddhimagga within 1234 to 1269CE .
It is called Visuddhimárga-mahásannaya or Parákramabáhu-sannaya.]
The monks below have not read the King's note, I think. Yet they have noticed that S. Dhammika's note is immature.
Ven. Dhammanado:

Ven. Dhammika is making the common mistake of confusing Buddhaghosa’s colophon with that of the scribal copyist. The former dedicates the the merit of composing the Visuddhimagga to the happiness of all beings. It’s the scribe, not Buddhaghosa, who wants to go to heaven and later meet Metteyya.
Ven. Sujato:

In any case, the passage that expresses a wish to be reborn with Metteyya has multiple indications that it is a later addition, probably a scribal remark by a copyist.

It is only found in Sinhalese manuscripts
It doesn’t identify Buddhaghosa at all, merely saying “through the merit I have gained by this”.
It appears after the rather elaborate praise of Buddhaghosa, which itself appears to be a later addition (it’s not good form to praise oneself in this way).
It is right at the end, exactly where a copyist’s scribal mark would be added
This belief is implicitly rejected in the text itself (Vism 1.135)
Ven. Panditha of Burma:

Those colophons have not come from Acariya Buddhaghosa’s hands.

Acariya Buddhaghosa wanted to have all the credit transferred to the Mahāvihāra community.

Those introductions, epilogues, and colophons still have certain aspects not yet sufficiently examined.

Traditional scholars hardly believe that those colophons are written by Acariya Buddhaghosa.

All the works of Acariya Buddhaghosa were anonymous at the beginning.

This anonymity is the reason for someone in posterity to add such colophons in order to save the author’s name.

The reason for anonymity was to get the works endorsed by the prestige and authority of Mahāvihāra, expecting the longevity of books. If only a less number of people were interested in manually copying his book, it would remain “unpublished".

In this way, Acariya Buddhaghosa could successfully publish his works inland and internationally.

This circumstance of Acariya Buddhaghosa can be compared to presidential speech-writers. Although writer’s name is not a secret, no president would acknowledge the writer in the speech itself.
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