Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:06 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:27 am It depends on the Mahayana. The forms that talk of an Atman, no. Others, possibly.
Which Mahayana schools talk of an Atman?
Some of the Tathāgatagarbha sūtras do. If I remember correctly the Nirvana sutra teaches that the ultimate truth is that there really is an atta.


  • Thanks a lot for the info. That's really amazing.

    https://www.buddha-images.net/blog/atman-in-buddhism/
    • Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra

      This Sutra uses positive language to denote absolute reality. ... the sutra teaches an underlying essence of self of Atman. This true self is the Buddha nature or Tathagatagarbha which is realized only by the awakened ones.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
auto
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by auto »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:10 am ..I think he'd react similarly to how he'd react to the Theravada Abhidhamma.
and suttas
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DNS
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by DNS »

To be fair, atman has found its way into some sub-theravada traditions too, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammakay ... #True_Self
thepea
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:12 pm To be fair, atman has found its way into some sub-theravada traditions too, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammakay ... #True_Self
Atman is a paradox.
Mahayana teachings are just an expression of the ultimate truth from another’s perspective.
All religions point to the one ultimate truth.
onion
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by onion »

My understanding, Mahayana Buddhism says everyone can achieve Buddahood so the Buddha has less emphasis placed on him where in Theravada this cannot happen and there is only on Buddha?
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Goofaholix
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Goofaholix »

I'm not sure he was in the disapproval business.

I think he would do the same as he did with Brahminism and other religions of his time, use their concepts and cosmology to illustrate the talking points of his teachings, while also exposing the flaws in their beliefs.

He'd probably need to do the some with aspects of Theravada.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:52 pm I'm not sure he was in the disapproval business.

I think he would do the same as he did with Brahminism and other religions of his time, use their concepts and cosmology to illustrate the talking points of his teachings, while also exposing the flaws in their beliefs.

He'd probably need to do the some with aspects of Theravada.
I think if the Buddha somehow came back, in a time travelling device, a lot of Buddhists would find his teachings surprising.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dan74
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Dan74 »

Theravada, Mahayana, even Christianity and Islam are all much larger in spiritual power and scope than any of us here, IMO. That's why it is futile to judge them. Even more futile and smacking of hubris to put oneself in the Buddha's position and imagine what He would say. I know a post telling others to be humbler comes with an inevitable irony. But I feel it would be 1000x better if we all spent a second practicing for each minute we spend on threads like these..
_/|\_
Microdose
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Microdose »

These divisions are only superficial , which in the first place the Buddha of the pali suttas would reject as net of views, some find these views important but generally they can be made into sectarian views superficially

What brings one away from greed hatred and delusion as per kalama sutta is what the Pali sutta Buddha would endorse and reject superficial views


It’s a wonderful time to gain wisdom from each great teachings and be more unified , as per many Mahayana teachers


Intellectuals, scholars and religious fanatics seem to be far from Dhamma
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

I won't answer as to if I think that the ascetic Gautama would disapprove of the Mahāyāna, but I will offer vital context. From this, forum readers can determine for themselves if this is reasonable or if it is crypto-ātmavādin junk.

The Mahāparinirvāṇanāmamahāyānasūtra exists in upwards of six recensions. The most infamous is that of Dharmakṣema Bhikṣu. This is the "ātmavādin" recension, and it is likely a forgery produced by the monk in question.

"A 'forged' Mahāyāna sūtra?! Say it isn't so!"

Whether we consider all Mahāyāna sūtras to be forgeries or not, it appears that this monk created a new Parinirvāṇasūtra by combining existing versions together and adding passages inserted from Tathāgatagarbha sūtras and other apocrypha, as well as seemingly-personally-invented passages.

There are two particularly infamous passages in this recension. One equates the "Tathāgatagarbha" with the "Ātman." The second states that the Dharmakāya is the "perfection of the Ātman."

The second of the passages that appear to have been inserted by the monk is actually taken from a different Tathāgatagarbha sūtra, T353, the *Ekayānamahopāyavaipulya, a version of the "Śrīmālādevī Lion's Roar." It reads:
The vijñānakāya has differentiation as its basis. Some see the dharmas as destroyed because they do not understand the continuity of conditionality, and so they tend toward nihilism. The uninstructed cannot see the kṣaṇas alongside the continuity of conditionality, and so they become eternalists. With this interpretation and the other, they differentiate so, and then they become inferior, subsequently maintaining their inferiority always.

Living beings are inverted with their five aggregates. They think that the impermanent is the eternal. They think that duḥkha is bliss. They think that what is anātman is the ātman. They think that impurity is purity. The wisdom of all of the Arhats and all of the Pratyekabuddhas can glimpse neither the Tathāgata's Dharmakāya nor the range of his omniscience. If living beings were to believe the words of the Buddhas, they would arouse thoughts concerning the eternal, thoughts concerning bliss, thoughts concerning the ātman, and thoughts concerning purity. These are not inverted views.

How can this be? Because the Dharmakāya is the perfection of the eternal (常波羅蜜 *nityapāramitā), the perfection of bliss (樂波羅蜜 *sukhapāramitā), the perfection of the ātman (我波羅蜜 *ātmapāramitā), and the perfection of purity (淨波羅蜜 *subhapāramitā). Those who see the Dharmakāya thus see correctly. Those who so see correctly are the true sons of the Buddha, (who are) born of the buddhavacana, born the Saddharma, who have been transformed by the Dharma, who have attained the Dharma, and who reap its benefits.
Apologists for this sūtra say that the Dharmakāya is the "perfection" of the Ātman because it, in truth, is the reality that is sought when the worldlings wrongly conceive of the Ātman. It is "better" than the Ātman, "more perfect," a "perfection" of the "imperfect" or otherwise "flawed" Ātman. Other perspectives say that this is a non-Buddhist provisional teaching addressed to those worldlings who are not yet ready for the true "selfless" Dharma. This is based upon a passage from the Madhyamakaśāstra wherein Master Vimalākṣa states that the Buddhas teach ātmavāda to the Lokāyata-Cārvākas, who have neither fear of hell nor the drive towards liberation, in order to save them from hell and set them on the path, in a future life, towards the Buddhadharma.

Does this convince? Unlikely. It doesn't help that, as the passage is presented in the forged sūtra, it has none of the contextualizing clarificatory material from its source. Decontextualized, it is ātmavāda without a doubt, and unfortunately it is completely decontextualized as it appears in the recension of the Mahāparinirvāṇanāmamahāyānasūtra in question.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
samsarayoga
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by samsarayoga »

He would disapprove of avalokite since it's purely made up
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Re: Would the Buddha disapprove of Mahayana Buddhism

Post by Milinda »

In some aspects yes.

Like for example the "Chod" rites and that 'feeding your demons', meditating imaging your body devoured by wrathfull demons in order to "cut" (that's what Chod means in tibetan your 'self).

https://www.lionsroar.com/how-to-practi ... ur-demons/

I think this is a rite that come from Tibetan Bod. And that notion from "taming demons" that Padmasambhava -converted to Tantra- when he reached Tibet, it's not from the early teaching.
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