Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Radix
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Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?
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Goofaholix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Goofaholix »

That person
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:27 pm Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, but if you are referring to Buddhe Dhamme Saṅghe avecca-pasādo ("confirmed" or "experiential" confidence in the Triple Gem) then this is associated with ariya disciples, who are very much responsible for it by virtue of their own spiritual development. For example:
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.41/en/suj ... ript=latin
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Inedible »

Radix wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:27 pm Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?
Are you approaching this from a Catholic perspective, where Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit?
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Jack19990101 »

In context of N8P -

It is by one's intuition, faith arises.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by justindesilva »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:43 am In context of N8P -

It is by one's intuition, faith arises.
There are many instances where one has faith from past births. Mainly kids below 3 reciting pirith and seeking to go to temples.
Saddha or faith is a matter of heart . Experience in life and seeking solutions too can develop faith by understanding the correct ideology of morals or virtue or need of sila. However few understand that most required way of life as a buddist is 8nfp or arya ashtangika marga . Many try to fulfil need of saddha or faith by just worshipping statues or going on pilgrimage . Yet developing dana sila bhavana is a must to maintain and develop faith or saddha.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by justindesilva »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:43 am In context of N8P -

It is by one's intuition, faith arises.
There are many instances where one has faith from past births. Mainly kids below 3 reciting pirith and seeking to go to temples.
Saddha or faith is a matter of heart . Experience in life and seeking solutions too can develop faith by understanding the correct ideology of morals or virtue or need of sila. However few understand that most required way of life as a buddist is 8nfp or arya ashtangika marga . Many try to fulfil need of saddha or faith by just worshipping statues or going on pilgrimage . Yet developing dana sila bhavana is a must to maintain and develop faith or saddha.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by nirodh27 »

Dukkha is the responsible of faith (I prefer trust) in the Triple Gem.
"And what is the result of stress? There are some cases in which a person overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes to search outside, 'Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?' I tell you, monks, that stress results either in bewilderment or in search. This is called the result of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This is also stated in the trascendental dependent origination: the first condition is Dukkha, that generates faith/trust.
Suffering is a vital condition for faith. dukkhūpanisā saddhā,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato

So it is not a "who", but a "what" :smile:

Ofc Buddhism is also a religion, an faith in the religion is usually due to parents that are Buddhist as well. But I think that the Buddha is speaking of a different kind of Saddha. I think that those two passages tells a lot of which kind of faith is needed for the path by looking at the "fuel" of it.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Bundokji »

I would say it is a natural phenomena.

In each cosmic cycle/solar system, there arises a Buddha who rediscovers the dhamma and establish a Sangha. The three higher knowledge are indicative of that, of which the first knowledge has to do with kamma and rebirth, the second with identifying people with little dust in their eyes, and the third is the knowledge peculiar to the awakened one.

Nature is more aristocratic than any man-made hierarchy, where supreme knowledge is given only to a few in every generation. Faith has two aspects equally related to the conditioned and the unconditioned. Kamma and merit are necessary, but not sufficient in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by sakyan »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:37 am Dukkha is the responsible of faith (I prefer trust) in the Triple Gem.
"And what is the result of stress? There are some cases in which a person overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes to search outside, 'Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?' I tell you, monks, that stress results either in bewilderment or in search. This is called the result of stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This is also stated in the trascendental dependent origination: the first condition is Dukkha, that generates faith/trust.
Suffering is a vital condition for faith. dukkhūpanisā saddhā,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/sujato

So it is not a "who", but a "what" :smile:

Ofc Buddhism is also a religion, an faith in the religion is usually due to parents that are Buddhist as well. But I think that the Buddha is speaking of a different kind of Saddha. I think that those two passages tells a lot of which kind of faith is needed for the path by looking at the "fuel" of it.
:goodpost:

Yes, dukkha is a cause for faith.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:35 pmThat person
So regardless of how the people who claim to have faith in the Triple Gem actually behave, it's still solely up to the individual to have faith in the Triple Gem, and said individual can rightfully be judged severely if they lack such faith?
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:07 pm ...said individual can rightfully be judged severely if they lack such faith?
Where did this come from? Who said that?
Did the Buddha teach severe judgement for those lacking faith?
How about you have kindness and compassion for people don't follow the Buddha's teachings. Maybe in the next life they will have enough good kamma to encounter the dhamma.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Inedible wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:36 amAre you approaching this from a Catholic perspective, where Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit?
No. I'm interested in perspectives on whether and if yes, how people are mutually responsible for eachother's faith in the Triple Gem.
Many Buddhists seem to support a rugged individualism where everyone is seen as left to themselves and all forms of sociality ridiculed as worldly: "Your life, your problem. Your faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, your problem."
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Goofaholix »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:07 pm it's still solely up to the individual to have faith in the Triple Gem,
Who else could it be?
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:07 pm and said individual can rightfully be judged severely if they lack such faith?
I don't think its ever rightful to judge other people, certainly not severely however that would play out. We aren't fundamentalists.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:14 pm Where did this come from? Who said that?
Did the Buddha teach severe judgement for those lacking faith?
How about you have kindness and compassion for people don't follow the Buddha's teachings. Maybe in the next life they will have enough good kamma to encounter the dhamma.
Actually, I myself have been judged severely for such lack of faith, by Buddhists. I'm not saying this to complain or criticize. Given all the things I've seen in religions and spiritualities, it wouldn't surprise to see a doctrinal tenet stating that those who lack faith need to be judged severely (and then some).
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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