Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:12 pmIf Buddhists have taught you that, then my initial recommendation was to find yourself some different Buddhists. But on reflection, it's probably more appropriate to recommend that you pay attention differently. What probably happened is that you approached them with particularly unhelpful and rigidly-held views, which then coloured how you perceived their responses.

So you are partly right. It was the hard way, but you haven't learnt anything.
But of course you blame me. That's rule nr. one of religion/spirituality: Always blame others.

I was kind for well over the first ten years of my involvement with Buddhists, and yet what good did it do me? I was taken to be a ninny they can f*** with.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:18 pmIf you got answers you don't like, re-phrase your question.

Have you read much of the pali canon? Its the texts that are the basis for theravada buddhism which is tradition this forum is addressing. There is much there about faith and it may help you re-orient your question.
There's the Pali suttas, there's the "official doctrine", and then there's what you actually need to do and be like in order to succeed spiritually. Three different things.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by cappuccino »

Radix wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:30 pm then there's what you actually need to do and be like in order to succeed spiritually.
you need to admit your situation


act like it matters because it does


does it not
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by dharmacorps »

Radix wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:30 pm
There's the Pali suttas, there's the "official doctrine", and then there's what you actually need to do and be like in order to succeed spiritually. Three different things.
If you approach it that way, then I am not surprised you are frustrated.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

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Radix wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:12 pmIf Buddhists have taught you that, then my initial recommendation was to find yourself some different Buddhists. But on reflection, it's probably more appropriate to recommend that you pay attention differently. What probably happened is that you approached them with particularly unhelpful and rigidly-held views, which then coloured how you perceived their responses.

So you are partly right. It was the hard way, but you haven't learnt anything.
But of course you blame me. That's rule nr. one of religion/spirituality: Always blame others.

I was kind for well over the first ten years of my involvement with Buddhists, and yet what good did it do me? I was taken to be a ninny they can f*** with.
Well, maybe, maybe. But you have never said which terrible Buddhists these were, despite being asked. Nor have you taken up the repeated Zoom-age invitation to meet a different set of Buddhists online, and try to have a better experience. Nor has your stance changed in well over 10 years on Dhamma Wheel. So I think it much more likely that you are playing games in an attempt to prove a self-fulfilling hypothesis that Buddhists are hypocrites because they are supposed to love you, but they don't love you when you call them hypocrites. The pattern goes like this:

binocular/Radix: "You Buddhists are hypocrites because you only ever put people down and belittle them!"

Buddhists: "That's not the right way to look at it, binocular/Radix. We haven't done that."

binocular/Radix: "But you're doing it now! Telling me that I'm not looking at it the right way! That's what all religions do! Oh, the irony! (Trademark applied for)."

Buddhists: "Perhaps the problem does lie with you, binocular/Radix. There are lots of suttas and teachings which remind us of our role in creating our own reality..."

binocular/Radix: "See! Religious people are all the same! Blaming others, and belittling me! Hypocrites! Oh the irony!!"

(Repeat for 10 years, or for as long as you find it gratifying, whichever is the shortest.)
"It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings that is the gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to bring) pain, and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The removal and the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape from feelings.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... nypo.html
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:58 pm Well, maybe, maybe. But you have never said which terrible Buddhists these were, despite being asked. Nor have you taken up the repeated Zoom-age invitation to meet a different set of Buddhists online, and try to have a better experience. Nor has your stance changed in well over 10 years on Dhamma Wheel. So I think it much more likely that you are playing games in an attempt to prove a self-fulfilling hypothesis that Buddhists are hypocrites because they are supposed to love you, but they don't love you when you call them hypocrites. The pattern goes like this:

binocular/Radix: "You Buddhists are hypocrites because you only ever put people down and belittle them!"

Buddhists: "That's not the right way to look at it, binocular/Radix. We haven't done that."

binocular/Radix: "But you're doing it now! Telling me that I'm not looking at it the right way! That's what all religions do! Oh, the irony! (Trademark applied for)."

Buddhists: "Perhaps the problem does lie with you, binocular/Radix. There are lots of suttas and teachings which remind us of our role in creating our own reality..."

binocular/Radix: "See! Religious people are all the same! Blaming others, and belittling me! Hypocrites! Oh the irony!!"

(Repeat for 10 years, or for as long as you find it gratifying, whichever is the shortest.)
Nonsense. I'm learning to be like you. If duplicity is the name of your Buddhist game, so be it. I'm not being critical of it at all, you got that entirely wrong. I don't quite see the point of doing things the way religious/spiritual people do it, but if that's how they do it, then that's how it is. If you want to sacrifice infants or whatever, that's on you, I'm not going to interfere. The bottomline is that you're better off than I, and this why this whole thing matters.

The only thing that grieves me about this whole thing is that I can't figure it out. Why all these little jabs, all this passive-aggressiveness, duplicity, authoritarianism. What the f*** is the purpose of all this if you have the key to enlightenment already?? Why be an ordinary moralizing busybody when you are already enlightened or inevitably close to it? Is that crazy wisdom, Vajra wrath, or what? A person cannot be so obtuse as to be able to profusely quote suttas, in moral exhortation, and then do the exact opposite by mere accident. No. That has got to be deliberate. But why?? To what end?? Is this what it takes to become enlightened??
"It is the happiness and gladness arising dependent on feelings that is the gratification in feelings. Feelings are impermanent, (liable to bring) pain, and are subject to change; this is the danger in feelings. The removal and the giving up of the desire and lust for feelings is the escape from feelings.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... nypo.html
Totally missing the point. But, by all means, go ahead, dictate my reality, you love to do that.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:37 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:58 pm Well, maybe, maybe. But you have never said which terrible Buddhists these were, despite being asked. Nor have you taken up the repeated Zoom-age invitation to meet a different set of Buddhists online, and try to have a better experience. Nor has your stance changed in well over 10 years on Dhamma Wheel. So I think it much more likely that you are playing games in an attempt to prove a self-fulfilling hypothesis that Buddhists are hypocrites because they are supposed to love you, but they don't love you when you call them hypocrites. The pattern goes like this:

binocular/Radix: "You Buddhists are hypocrites because you only ever put people down and belittle them!"

Buddhists: "That's not the right way to look at it, binocular/Radix. We haven't done that."

binocular/Radix: "But you're doing it now! Telling me that I'm not looking at it the right way! That's what all religions do! Oh, the irony! (Trademark applied for)."

Buddhists: "Perhaps the problem does lie with you, binocular/Radix. There are lots of suttas and teachings which remind us of our role in creating our own reality..."

binocular/Radix: "See! Religious people are all the same! Blaming others, and belittling me! Hypocrites! Oh the irony!!"

(Repeat for 10 years, or for as long as you find it gratifying, whichever is the shortest.)
Nonsense. I'm learning to be like you. If duplicity is the name of your Buddhist game, so be it. I'm not being critical of it at all, you got that entirely wrong. I don't quite see the point of doing things the way religious/spiritual people do it, but if that's how they do it, then that's how it is. If you want to sacrifice infants or whatever, that's on you, I'm not going to interfere. The bottomline is that you're better off than I, and this why this whole thing matters.

The only thing that grieves me about this whole thing is that I can't figure it out.
I've just explained. Either you are playing a game where you get an unpleasant response to an unpleasant overture, thereby allowing you to confirm your view that you are not loved even by people who claim to love everyone; or it's the other way round, and Buddhism is trolling you.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:18 pmI've just explained.
No, you haven't.
Either
There you go again.
I am whatever you say that I am.
I feel whatever you say that I feel.
I think whatever you say that I think.
My intentions are whatever you say that my intentions are.
My options are whatever you say that my options are.
I don't really exist.
You define me.
You are my master.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:18 pmI've just explained.
No, you haven't.
Either
There you go again.
I am whatever you say that I am.
I feel whatever you say that I feel.
I think whatever you say that I think.
My intentions are whatever you say that my intentions are.
My options are whatever you say that my options are.
I don't really exist.
You define me.
You are my master.
Ah, OK. These are your orders for this week:

1) Develop a meditation practice based on the mindfulness of breathing.
2) Cultivate boundless loving kindness, and express it towards everyone you interact with on this forum
3) Stop criticising Buddhism and Buddhists and "religious and spiritual people".
4) Try to cheer up a bit
5) Stop using the phrase "Oh, the irony!"
6) Don't answer back to your master.

I'll be checking how you get on, so please ask if there's anything you don't understand. :anjali: :heart:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Buddhists criticizing Buddhists or Buddhism?
Perhaps Radix is imitating frequent posters on Dhamma wheel.
Below are just a few instances.
1. A buddhist posted regarding DW
"It's a very bad place to learn Buddhism "from the ground up."
viewtopic.php?t=44028&start=45
In which case why would Radix take anyone's advice on DW?
On the same thread here is an instance of a Buddhist criticizing another Buddhist. 
"Ceisiwr, you are THE prominent poster on Dhamma wheel. Have you ever considered psychotherapeutical help?
2. On another thread a Buddhist posted
It’s a Thervadin forum. It amazes me how many people who come here get outraged at seeing Theravadin arguments on a Theravadin discussion page, not that there are many actual Thervadins here. Really it’s “Anything goes Wheel” or, perhaps more charitably “Sutta Wheel”. The number of quasi-Mahayanists certainly outnumbers those interested in what the Mahaviharavasins had to say, despite them bizarrely still claiming to be Theravadin. If you argue against almost everything a school teaches, how on earth are you following it? That’s a rhetorical question.
Is this not a case of a buddhist belittling the entire Dhamma Wheel forum (where quite a number of buddhists post) by calling it "Anything goes wheel" link viewtopic.php?p=699770#p699770.
3. I have been called a "yogcacara" or "crypto Mahayanist" 
for claiming, "that rupa is DO is an aspect of consciousness, or that rupa is a worldly phenomenon"
4. When I made the comment
Foundation of Paticca Samuppada was not a Gandhabba for sure
I was heavily criticised for my understanding by one user.
A case of a Buddhist criticising another buddhist within Dhamma wheel? 
With love :candle:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Bundokji »

I am yet to understand what this thread is about :popcorn:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji asked
"I am yet to understand what this thread is about"
From the title
"Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem"
I assume the question would be better phrased as
"What is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?" since Buddha has said there is no "who". I can bring in a sutta to support this.
The correct answer ought to be "The right understanding of Dependent Origination". That understanding is responsible for a person's faith.
But there does not seem to be a consensus here as to "How suffering Originates"

It is good question when rightly phrased. I will try to answer it as best as as I can when I have the time. Some of the answers already given are helpful, but I think they need some elaboration.
1) Develop a meditation practice based on the mindfulness of breathing.
2) Cultivate boundless loving kindness etc....
With love :candle:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Bundokji »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pm Bundokji asked
"I am yet to understand what this thread is about"
From the title
"Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem"
I assume the question would be better phrased as
"What is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?" since Buddha has said there is no "who". I can bring in a sutta to support this.
The correct answer ought to be "The right understanding of Dependent Origination". That understanding is responsible for a person's faith.
But there does not seem to be a consensus here as to "How suffering Originates"

It is good question when rightly phrased. I will try to answer it as best as as I can when I have the time. Some of the answers already given are helpful, but I think they need some elaboration.
1) Develop a meditation practice based on the mindfulness of breathing.
2) Cultivate boundless loving kindness etc....
With love :candle:
Thank you Pulsar :anjali:

Until you do, and as you pointed out the aspect of "who" as not the best phrasing of the question, i will try to have an input on that, with the hope that it will help answer the OP question.

The "who" is the practitioner who is still possessed of self view (the deluded state) and trying to rid herself/himself of that delusion by confirming the teachings through following the instructions in order to see them directly (as opposite to being told). The deluded practitioner is advised to observe or have faith in impermanence, so depending on his/her tools of confirmation, the teachings is no less confirmed by failure than success. If the practitioner is seeking an end, and this end can be achieved by persisting efforts and power of the will, then the practitioner is seeking permanence rather than observing impermanence. As such, continued faith is dependent on not reaching a conclusion, or by acknowledging the uncertainty of existence. How long this faith can be held is unclear, but if trying in futility is unsatisfactory, quitting would be equally unsatisfactory after one supposedly had taken the "red bill".
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:27 pm I am yet to understand what this thread is about
While I remain in awe how many people don't conceive of people as being interconnected and interdependent, also when it comes to matters of faith.
In awe of seeing the narrow understanding that some people have of what "noble friendship" consists of or should consist of.
As if the Dhamma would be a simple algorithm which a machine could teach a person.
In advance dismissing the value of a person, a human being, treating them like a drone, and expecting them to be satisfied with this.
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Radix
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pmFrom the title
"Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem"
I assume the question would be better phrased as
"What is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?" since Buddha has said there is no "who". I can bring in a sutta to support this.
The correct answer ought to be "The right understanding of Dependent Origination". That understanding is responsible for a person's faith.
That's putting the cart before the horse. It's starting off by taking for granted the conclusion that one is supposed to yet reach via practice.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
Glenn Wallis
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