Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:39 pm it wouldn't surprise to see a doctrinal tenet stating that those who lack faith need to be judged severely (and then some).
You won't find this in the Pali Suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by BKh »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:54 pm You won't find this in the Pali Suttas.
But you will find this:
https://suttacentral.net/an4.219/en/sujato
“Someone with four qualities is cast down to hell. … They’re faithless, unethical, shameless, and imprudent. … Someone with four qualities is raised up to heaven. … They’re faithful, ethical, conscientious, and prudent. …”
More on the topic, though, there is this interesting passage here:
https://suttacentral.net/ud2.8/en/sujato
“If, sir, Venerable Mahāmoggallāna can guarantee me three things—wealth, life, and faith—then let Suppavāsā make seven meals, afterwards I shall make mine.” “I can guarantee you two things—wealth and life. But as for faith, you alone are the guarantor.”
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,

Yes indeed, kamma will do what kamma does.

As I understand it, Radix seemed more focused on the "social shaming" angle.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by JamesTheGiant »


As I understand it, Radix seemed more focused on the "social shaming" angle.
Or maybe murdering the faithless infidels / apostates!

I joke. But that's what some religions do, they justify killing people for their lack of faith, because scripture says so.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Inedible »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:18 pm Many Buddhists seem to support a rugged individualism where everyone is seen as left to themselves and all forms of sociality ridiculed as worldly: "Your life, your problem. Your faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, your problem."
Yes. I have seen the same thing. Even in Mahayana circles, where the idea is to take care of others, there is so much struggle that there is nothing left over to give.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Pulsar »

Radix wrote
it wouldn't surprise to see a doctrinal tenet stating that those who lack faith need to be judged severely (and then some).
Doctrinal tenet? I cannot find such a tenet anywhere in the Pali suttas with agama parallels.
AN 4.219 quoted in this thread
But you will find this:
https://suttacentral.net/an4.219/en/sujato
“Someone with four qualities is cast down to hell. … They’re faithless, unethical, shameless, and imprudent. … Someone with four qualities is raised up to heaven. … They’re faithful, ethical, conscientious, and prudent. …”
Has no agama parallel.
If you analyze the word "faith" in detail, or soteriologically, only a sotapanna can be said to have faith.
Only a sotapanna has got rid of Doubt. As long as one has doubt regarding the Doctrine (Dhamma) or the Buddha, the apparent faith? does that qualify as Real Faith?
Let us be fair to the Doctrine, and its Founder. People who claim to be buddhists have a variety of viewpoints.
Why subscribe to those? why be bothered by those viewpoints?
With love :candle:
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Inedible »

That seems a little harsh to me. It takes faith from the beginning to work to become a Stream Enterer. A person wouldn't do all that work without some belief that it is possible. The faith flowers and is fully developed on becoming a Stream Enterer. I think the list of five things I'm thinking of is the five spiritual faculties. Faith and wisdom are balanced and so are concentration and energy. You can never have too much mindfulness. The picture was supposed to be wheels of a car, with faith and wisdom on the same axle. Mindfulness does the driving and keeps the others balanced. It was just tricky for me because the five spiritual faculties are a lot like the seven awakening factors and have some overlap with them. Like mindfulness, energy, and concentration. It took me a really long time to get used to having so many lists and I still haven't memorized them as well as I should. I'm fairly sure both lists are part of the thirty-seven factors of becoming an Arhat.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:36 amAs I understand it, Radix seemed more focused on the "social shaming" angle.
No, but on the responsibility that practitioners have or might have toward one another.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Goofaholix »

Radix wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:22 pm No, but on the responsibility that practitioners have or might have toward one another.
I'm not sure how one practitioner could be responsible for another practitioners faith. A teachers job is to promote faith, among other things, but isn't responsible for how his/her students respond to that.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Radix »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 pmI'm not sure how one practitioner could be responsible for another practitioners faith.
By not betraying the Triple Gem.

When people claim to be Buddhists but behave just like ordinary, worldly people, or like just plain jerks, this has an effect on how other people will perceive Buddhism.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Sam Vara »

Radix wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:49 pm
Goofaholix wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:27 pmI'm not sure how one practitioner could be responsible for another practitioners faith.
By not betraying the Triple Gem.

When people claim to be Buddhists but behave just like ordinary, worldly people, or like just plain jerks, this has an effect on how other people will perceive Buddhism.
Buddhism is for ordinary worldly people who are often jerks, and one's personal salvation is more important than what other people think.
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Radix wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:49 pm When people claim to be Buddhists but behave just like ordinary, worldly people, or like just plain jerks, this has an effect on how other people will perceive Buddhism.
Are you assuming there's some requirement for lay people to promote the Dhamma or Buddhism?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:57 pm Buddhism is for ordinary worldly people who are often jerks
Buddhism is not for ordinary people


It’s the incredible insight of a lone Sage…


Meant for other sages
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Microdose »

Everyone is their own responsibility

Be an island unto yourself

Everything one needs is within them

Dhamma is about growing up and taking responsibility for one’s own actions and words
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Re: Who is responsible for a person's faith in the Triple Gem?

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:57 pm Buddhism is for ordinary worldly people who are often jerks
Buddhism is not for ordinary people


It’s the incredible insight of a lone Sage…


Meant for other sages
I consider myself an ordinary person (well, relatively ordinary!) who practices Buddhism. So where am I getting it wrong? Am I not practising Buddhism, or am I a sage without knowing it?
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