Governance and Buddhist cosmology

[Bundokji]

As the US midterm elections are undergoing, i was wondering to what extent the human realm or samsara includes aspects of wider Buddhist cosmology. In western democracies in particular, "the house" is divided into representatives and senate (or common vs lords). Even a quick look at the terminology involved reflects how strange the human psyche is.

While modern interpretations interprets the above in terms of psychological structure, in Buddhism, thinking of it in more literal terms is encouraged.

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms? and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

[cappuccino]

The Problem of Conflict

It is one of the bitterest ironies of human life that although virtually all human beings cherish a desire to live in peace, we continually find ourselves embroiled in conflict …

[TRobinson465]

I see no evidence of worldly politics being related to the politics of other realms. Nowadays its allegience based on your group or clan (in the human world) that mostly runs things with circumstances and candidate character playing an ancillary role. The only cosmology related to the politics of the world would be the workings of kamma imo. Obviously the rise of the default ad hominem person stupid ppl liken opponents to when they have no argument-Adolf Hitler would mean there is some kamma for the people in Germany at the time to have to suffer such as fate.

In the case of US elections, this was a complete anomoly for us here in the States as we have high inflation (like most of the world) and a president with a pretty low approval rating atm, yet Biden's opposition party had a laughably poor showing by historical standards with extremely modest gains in our Congress, not only was it not a wave it was significantly below even an average showing for a midterm. Theres obviously circumstantial worldly reasons for this anomaly tho.

"IF" i was to chalk this up to some kind of cosmological kamma- I would say the reason is perhaps because there were many election denying (i win its fair, I lose its rigged) republicans on the ballot this year, many of whom ran for governors in swing states and even promised not to certify "unfair" election results in the next election, which is dangerously close to the facism we see in faux democracies like Russia, Thailand, Belarus and Burma. I dont think this threat to American democracy alone was enuff for these facist wackjobs to be prevented from office, so perhaps there was some kammic headwind of Americans not having the kamma to live under a fascist regime where legitimate election results arent certified because the state governor doesnt like who won may have helped pull thier opponents across the finish line in what shouldve been a red wave election cycle. the convenient timing of the supreme court striking down roe which for sure helped keep some of the facists out in close races due to high democratic turnout and non-election denying pro-democracy republicans all doing quite well are reasons i think the historically weird results was simply to keep America a free democracy and not set a precedent for it to become a fake one like Russia or Thailand. Or maybe even perhaps karma for ukrainians to win the war. The results will ensure continued support from the worlds sole and greatest superpower to ukraine in its war effort, as will the unusually warm winter in Europe causing european gas storages to overflow. But who knows what the real reason is. its mere speculation without abhinna powers.

[Lucas Oliveira]

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms? and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

The Four Great Kings (1st)
Catumahārājasutta
AN 3.37

“Bhikkhus, (1) on the eighth of the fortnight, the ministers and assembly members of the four great kings wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father, behave properly toward ascetics and brahmins, honor the elders of the family, observe the uposatha, keep the extra observance days, and do meritorious deeds.’ (2) On the fourteenth of the fortnight, the sons of the four great kings wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … … and do meritorious deeds.’ (3) On the fifteenth, the uposatha day, the four great kings themselves wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds.’

“If, bhikkhus, there are few people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds, the four great kings report this to the Tāvatiṁsa devas when they meet and are sitting together in the Sudhamma council hall: ‘Revered sirs, there are few people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds.’ Then, because of this, the Tāvatiṁsa devas become displeased, saying: ‘Alas, the celestial company will decline and the company of asuras will flourish!’

“But if there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds, the four great kings report this to the Tāvatiṁsa devas when they meet and are sitting together in the Sudhamma council hall: ‘Revered sirs, there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father, behave properly toward ascetics and brahmins, honor the elders of the family, observe the uposatha, keep the extra observance days, and do meritorious deeds.’ Then, because of this, the Tāvatiṁsa devas become elated, saying: ‘Indeed, the celestial company will flourish and the company of asuras will decline!’”

https://suttacentral.net/an3.37/en/bodh ... ight=false

[Bundokji]

But who knows what the real reason is. its mere speculation without abhinna powers.

SN 56.41 cannot be more relevant, where the Buddha advised not to speculate about the world, but still confirmed a battle took place between devas and demons.

I did not open this thread with the mindset of discussing the specifics of US elections, but brought it as a timely example. If we were to take people by their own words and actions while suspending judgement, many explicitly declare allegiances to gods such as Muslims or republicans who oppose abortion based on religious grounds. The naming of the "house" also indicates a division between some worldly realm and heavenly realm. In fact, in the UK as far as i know, the house of lords is made up of bishops, whereas the country is declared secular.

Needless to say that there are wide range of practices and sacrifices to higher beings in the world. I do not deny that the physiological/modern perspective can be useful, but the ancient one takes us away from our attempts to prove the existence or non-existence of these beings, and question our understanding of what they could be, or what function do they serve in the world. The modern attempts to replace gods can be quite dangerous:

The idea of an all-powerful divine Being is present everywhere, unconsciously if not consciously, because it is an archetype. There is in the psyche some superior power, and if it is not consciously a god, it is the "belly" at least, in St. Paul's words. I therefore consider it wiser to acknowledge the idea of God consciously, for, if we do not, something else is made God, usually something quite inappropiate and stupid such as only an "enlightened" intellect could hatch forth.
Carl Jung

[Bundokji]

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms? and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

The Four Great Kings (1st)
Catumahārājasutta
AN 3.37

“Bhikkhus, (1) on the eighth of the fortnight, the ministers and assembly members of the four great kings wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father, behave properly toward ascetics and brahmins, honor the elders of the family, observe the uposatha, keep the extra observance days, and do meritorious deeds.’ (2) On the fourteenth of the fortnight, the sons of the four great kings wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … … and do meritorious deeds.’ (3) On the fifteenth, the uposatha day, the four great kings themselves wander over this world, thinking: ‘We hope there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds.’

“If, bhikkhus, there are few people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds, the four great kings report this to the Tāvatiṁsa devas when they meet and are sitting together in the Sudhamma council hall: ‘Revered sirs, there are few people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds.’ Then, because of this, the Tāvatiṁsa devas become displeased, saying: ‘Alas, the celestial company will decline and the company of asuras will flourish!’

“But if there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father … and do meritorious deeds, the four great kings report this to the Tāvatiṁsa devas when they meet and are sitting together in the Sudhamma council hall: ‘Revered sirs, there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father, behave properly toward ascetics and brahmins, honor the elders of the family, observe the uposatha, keep the extra observance days, and do meritorious deeds.’ Then, because of this, the Tāvatiṁsa devas become elated, saying: ‘Indeed, the celestial company will flourish and the company of asuras will decline!’”

https://suttacentral.net/an3.37/en/bodh ... ight=false

The Tetragrammaton, which means "consisting of four letter" might be in reference to the four great kings in the quoted sutta, and they might be the same attendant of Baka as per MN49. This could be an interesting way of understanding "compounded things" in Buddhism.

[TRobinson465]

I did not open this thread with the mindset of discussing the specifics of US elections, but brought it as a timely example. If we were to take people by their own words and actions while suspending judgement, many explicitly declare allegiances to gods such as Muslims or republicans who oppose abortion based on religious grounds. The naming of the "house" also indicates a division between some worldly realm and heavenly realm. In fact, in the UK as far as i know, the house of lords is made up of bishops, whereas the country is declared secular.

Needless to say that there are wide range of practices and sacrifices to higher beings in the world. I do not deny that the physiological/modern perspective can be useful, but the ancient one takes us away from our attempts to prove the existence or non-existence of these beings, and question our understanding of what they could be, or what function do they serve in the world. The modern attempts to replace gods can be quite dangerous:

Duly noted. Although I was just using it as a speculative example for my karmic argument, also without the intent to actually discuss the topic directly, which is not suitable for this forum.

[Radix]

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms?

What explanatory power would such an explanation have?

and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

Look at Hindus, for example. A Hindu worships a certain god, according to his caste and family (it's quite an elaborate system, though). So, for example, some Hindus worship Brahma, and some worship Shiva, and so on. And what is the net effect of all this?

[Bundokji]

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms?

What explanatory power would such an explanation have?

and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

Look at Hindus, for example. A Hindu worships a certain god, according to his caste and family (it's quite an elaborate system, though). So, for example, some Hindus worship Brahma, and some worship Shiva, and so on. And what is the net effect of all this?

One could argue: what utility or explanatory power remembering past lives has? remembering which clan (or cast) one belonged to?

I guess the nature of insight into these phenomena goes beyond the utility of everyday life. Wisdom, as distinct from intellectual prowess, has no obvious utility in the world except seeing things as they are. One could still succeed in worldly affairs through basic virtues and by working hard to achieve worldly gains. There is no obvious utility for wisdom, and if it were to be framed in the negative, it is to no longer being subject to deception.

One potential benefit of encountering devas is developing dispassion in relation to worldly affairs. The Buddha showed Nanda a glimpse of 500 dove-footed nymphs so the sakayan girl who he was obsessed with turned into a cauterized monkey with its ears & nose cut off. The appeal of nymphs in heavenly realms is used in other religions as well. It helped Nanda to refocus on his practice and eventually to see the futility of craving for nymphs.

In case of craving for power, people are willing to go out of their way and make allegiances to evil deities in order to succeed. In fact, if remembering ones past lives involve remembering being manipulated by actual deities, then this would serve as a protection from falling under their sway. Mara himself is a deity who enjoys what we do and seems to genuinely believe that indulging in sensuality is for our own good. Even nicer gods like Saka fears Mara - a deity that is widely respected and benevolent.

[Radix]

One potential benefit of encountering devas is developing dispassion in relation to worldly affairs.

But devas generally don't interact much with humans at all. Devas have a low opinion of humans (apparently we stink).

The Buddha showed Nanda a glimpse of 500 dove-footed nymphs so the sakayan girl who he was obsessed with turned into a cauterized monkey with its ears & nose cut off. The appeal of nymphs in heavenly realms is used in other religions as well. It helped Nanda to refocus on his practice and eventually to see the futility of craving for nymphs.

That's just it: it was the Buddha who showed Nanda some heavenly scenes, not a deva.

In case of craving for power, people are willing to go out of their way and make allegiances to evil deities in order to succeed. In fact, if remembering ones past lives involve remembering being manipulated by actual deities, then this would serve as a protection from falling under their sway. Mara himself is a deity who enjoys what we do and seems to genuinely believe that indulging in sensuality is for our own good.

One would need to be quite advanced in order to realize that one has been manipulated by Mara, though.

[Bundokji]

But devas generally don't interact much with humans at all. Devas have a low opinion of humans (apparently we stink).

Maybe you are referring to humans here as a species. From that perspective, the analogy of being disgusted with what is lower makes sense, akin to how humans get disgusted with other animals. The emphasis on virtue goes along the same line of thought as humans are believed to have more sense of guilt and shame (morality) than animals, so devas must have higher morality than us. In other traditions, the sense of guilt and shame is associated with descend from heaven (devas who became humans, akin to human who acts like an animal). In fact, the term descendant is the cosmological equivalent of ancestor in biology.

If we contrast modern evolutionary theory with ancient cosmological ones, the former is akin to bottom up and the later is akin to top down. Most Darwinians would acknowledge that the difference between species is of degree, not kind. We are all the manifestations of the same nature until time/evolution does its magic, then "kind/identity" becomes some a lapse in awareness until modern scientific tools helps us to see things as they really are. The Buddhist cosmological view is not so different. Kamma loka is one unified realm that has no ultimate separation between its inhabitants. It seems that sex is a dominant feature in kamma loka whereas sexual differences dissolve in rupa and arupa lokas.

As to the relationship to governance, human centrality is still dominant in both the secular and religious mindsets. Modern environmentalism is an attempt to account for lapses in our mindfulness/awareness as to the impact of our behavior on planet earth and other species, and it is no wonder that such endeavors became associated with politics and governance. In the US elections, DNC is portrayed to represent modernity, secularism and progress and have adopted environmental policies whereas the RNC still persists on traditional energy sources as a driver for economy, all for the amusement and excitement of the electorate.

It is funny, is it not, that both sides can accuse each other of human centrality. The cosmological perspective/descent from heaven made humans act as if they are god's representatives on earth, but it is not clear how the secular perspective changed that except through making it worse. They still cannot help but act as if they own planet earth. The nature of human existence is manifested of how the "house" is divided. If evolution has led to the emergence of homosapien, then there must be another shadow from above of which we are mere representations (the analogy of the cave). The whole idea of "rights" would not make any sense without the top-down perspective. Also the idea of attainments and spiritual progress depend on the same rationale. The shadow of modern science is psychic powers. If one is believable, then the other must be plausible.

That's just it: it was the Buddha who showed Nanda some heavenly scenes, not a deva.

Those heavenly scenes are from the deva realms. The idea of enlightenment seems to go through gods/devas as insight progresses:

So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.

The dhamma talks that the Buddha gave to Suppabuddha the leper seems to describe the progress of insight. Generosity and virtue are believed to be human qualities. The talk on heaven and the drawbacks of sensuality are relevant to Nanada's story when seeing the nymphs provided motivation for intensive practice. The last talk which is peculiar to noble ones seem to be beyond the range of sensuality, which fits nicely with Buddhist cosmology, which led Nanda to release the blessed one from his promise as the guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs.

One would need to be quite advanced in order to realize that one has been manipulated by Mara, though.

The fact that devas in kamma loka are under the sway of Mara is "structural" in Buddhist cosmology. If there is a notion analogous to Mara, then its the mind, and portraying Mara as an office holder makes him very similar to governments. The lengths people go to, the joy, the intense emotions and the keen anticipation for election results demonstrates how the vast majority of humans are indeed under the grip of Mara. If Mara is the highest echelon in Samsara, then paying allegiances to his servants goes along the same lines as no one could approach the king directly. Mundane right view encourages people to side with merit (the devas rather than the asuras) while dwelling in samsara, as that will postpone the inevitable, and allow them to enjoy some refined sensual pleasure before eventually go to hell

[Milinda]

As the US midterm elections are undergoing, i was wondering to what extent the human realm or samsara includes aspects of wider Buddhist cosmology. In western democracies in particular, "the house" is divided into representatives and senate (or common vs lords). Even a quick look at the terminology involved reflects how strange the human psyche is.

While modern interpretations interprets the above in terms of psychological structure, in Buddhism, thinking of it in more literal terms is encouraged.

Would it be accurate for a Buddhist to believe that many conflicts in the world are due to allegiances to different devas/brahmas in other realms? and if so, is changing allegiances possible from where we stand? and what are the consequences of it?

In my opinion Siddharta Gautama would reject 'western liberal democratic system' --at it's understood today' for being too plebeian.
If you see like 99% of the voters they are driven by their passions , specialy passions provoked by marketing-predators who they are in fact the one who pay and create the political campaings.

He was from a royal family and the democratic-circuses we live in the west they are far from being "usefull" and ordenated. So in my opinion conventional western democracy is "abuddhist".

[Bundokji]

In my opinion Siddharta Gautama would reject 'western liberal democratic system' --at it's understood today' for being too plebeian.
If you see like 99% of the voters they are driven by their passions , specialy passions provoked by marketing-predators who they are in fact the one who pay and create the political campaings.

He was from a royal family and the democratic-circuses we live in the west they are far from being "usefull" and ordenated. So in my opinion conventional western democracy is "abuddhist".

I would use your input to reflect:

Buddhism seems to be more in favor of monarchies than modern democracies. We are taught that Siddhartha Gautama (who was a royalty) was prophesied to be either a wheel turning monarch or a Buddha. In fact, In Buddhist cosmology, it is said that the conditions for a Buddha or a wheel turning monarch to appear in the world are very similar. The act of "wheel turning" is evident in both considering that the Buddha's very fist sermon was named along these lines: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

When Buddha confronted Mara, having the earth as his witness becomes a famous mudra, which potentially imply governance. In Plato's republic, of which modern western philosophy can be traced back to, aristocracy (of the wise) was preferred over the democracy of the masses. The ariya lineage on the other hand is made in clear contrast with the "ordinary person - puthujjana" who is the outcome of collectivism that could be traced back to the deluded brahma who remained under the influence of Mara. The endless search for the universal brahma, or the ultimate governor, seems to be a main driver in modern politics, of which globalism and universal democratic virtues are presented as "human rights".

The current world cup, which is a theatrical version of the competition of who is going to win the game, have religion, nationalities, politics and worldly virtues all combined in a one amusing show, of which LGBTQIA+ rights (along with drinking beer) are controversial issues. The modern "secular" west cannot help but promote "transcendental/universal rights" against the more domestic/local values of the host country. The universal nature of the "goal" of which the players are putting much effort to score does not have to be a vagina, but could be an anus, or a hand or whatever is imagined through these acts of mental masturbation.

[Milinda]

In my opinion Siddharta Gautama would reject 'western liberal democratic system' --at it's understood today' for being too plebeian.
If you see like 99% of the voters they are driven by their passions , specialy passions provoked by marketing-predators who they are in fact the one who pay and create the political campaings.

He was from a royal family and the democratic-circuses we live in the west they are far from being "usefull" and ordenated. So in my opinion conventional western democracy is "abuddhist".

I would use your input to reflect:

Buddhism seems to be more in favor of monarchies than modern democracies. We are taught that Siddhartha Gautama (who was a royalty) was prophesied to be either a wheel turning monarch or a Buddha. In fact, In Buddhist cosmology, it is said that the conditions for a Buddha or a wheel turning monarch to appear in the world are very similar. The act of "wheel turning" is evident in both considering that the Buddha's very fist sermon was named along these lines: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

When Buddha confronted Mara, having the earth as his witness becomes a famous mudra, which potentially imply governance. In Plato's republic, of which modern western philosophy can be traced back to, aristocracy (of the wise) was preferred over the democracy of the masses. The ariya lineage on the other hand is made in clear contrast with the "ordinary person - puthujjana" who is the outcome of collectivism that could be traced back to the deluded brahma who remained under the influence of Mara. The endless search for the universal brahma, or the ultimate governor, seems to be a main driver in modern politics, of which globalism and universal democratic virtues are presented as "human rights".

The current world cup, which is a theatrical version of the competition of who is going to win the game, have religion, nationalities, politics and worldly virtues all combined in a one amusing show, of which LGBTQIA+ rights (along with drinking beer) are controversial issues. The modern "secular" west cannot help but promote "transcendental/universal rights" against the more domestic/local values of the host country. The universal nature of the "goal" of which the players are putting much effort to score does not have to be a vagina, but could be an anus, or a hand or whatever is imagined through these acts of mental masturbation.

If I remember well the sanskrit word for that is: Chakravarti Raja.
That word Raja is the same like in latin "Rex" or in french Roi and spanish Rey.

That Woke-movement is very based on "christianity", that like Islam is very plebeian as I said before.

The same that Islam and Christianity want to convert everybody to their paths, in order to "save them", that woke (that is somekind of democratic fundamentalism) want to convert everybody to their new-abrahamic non-teistic religion.

[Bundokji]

If I remember well the sanskrit word for that is: Chakravarti Raja.
That word Raja is the same like in latin "Rex" or in french Roi and spanish Rey.

That Woke-movement is very based on "christianity", that like Islam is very plebeian as I said before.

The same that Islam and Christianity want to convert everybody to their paths, in order to "save them", that woke (that is somekind of democratic fundamentalism) want to convert everybody to their new-abrahamic non-teistic religion.

Thank you

Do you know of any connection between the four classes of modern Hinduism (Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and the Shudras) and the four spheres of Buddhist cosmology (Apaya, kama loka, rupa loka and arupa loka)?

From an ordinary (Abrahamic) hierarchical vantage point, the Ariya Sangha should be right on top, and yet being placed in rupa loka seems to fit nicely with the hierarchy of Indian society, considering that the Buddha belonged to the warrior cast.