ayoniso manasikara

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Misty
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ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Does Dependent Origination illustrate the mechanics of, or the flow of ayoniso manasikara?
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Mumfie
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Mumfie »

One of the more specialised formulations of it does – that of the Avijjāsutta.
Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.

I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances.

The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct.

The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties.

Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension.

Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention.

Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith.

Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma.

Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi
Also the related Tayodhamma Sutta.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.76/en/sujato
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Thank you
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Is it more accurate to say that ayoniso manasikara generates or activates dependent origination?
santa100
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by santa100 »

Misty wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:05 pm Is it more accurate to say that ayoniso manasikara generates or activates dependent origination?
Not "generate" but certainly helps perpetuating the continuing of the 12 DO links.
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Thank you
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Perhaps I’m looking for another term.

I was listening to venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi talking and what I understood was, when we attend to an object wisely (yoniso manasikara) we are able to explore, examine, reflect and consider things in a way that is not detached from the fundamental origin of things and this enables us to attend to our experience thoroughly, carefully, accurately and then unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned and this leads to the positive development of the mind.

I then incorrectly thought ayoniso manasikara was a detachment from the fundamental origin of things that generates suffering.

Is there a term used to describe the movement of consciousness detaching from the fundamental origin of things?

Does detaching here mean a kind of forgetting of or the development of a blind spot?

My apologies, I’m finding this hard to navigate
santa100
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by santa100 »

Misty wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:50 pm Is there a term used to describe the movement of consciousness detaching from the fundamental origin of things?
Maybe Papanca...
SarathW
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by SarathW »

Mumfie wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:25 am One of the more specialised formulations of it does – that of the Avijjāsutta.
Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.

I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances.

The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct.

The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties.

Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension.

Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention.

Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith.

Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma.

Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/bodhi
Also the related Tayodhamma Sutta.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.76/en/sujato
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Thank you, that's a good posting
siripala jagodage
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by siripala jagodage »

Dear Dhamma Friends

To understand Ayoniso manasikara one has to compare with Yoniso manasikara.Yoniso manasikara will arise when one is listening to Buddha Dhamma from a Kalyana Mitta without giving once own meaning to what he says.(That is with full attention to what he is saying) In such a instance Yoniso manasikara will arises.Then only one will be able to comprehend what he says(Dhamma). If not one will always be in Ayoniso manasekara.

In Sabbasava Suttha Lord Buddha explain further on this subject.

With Metta
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

What you mention here resonates with where my curiosity around this is tingling at the moment but I didn’t know if it was appropriate to continue asking questions. Anyway, here is my jumble of curiosity around this….my apologies, I’m not a scholar or academic so my skills are lacking

Is it accurate to understand “good” in the above linked suttas, good persons, to mean reliable? Reliable persons? …conveying reliable dhamma

Are reliable persons those who accurately understand, while directly seeing, the 4NT and Dependent Origination? Does accurately understanding and directly seeing the 4NT and DO provide the needed insight that enables the increasing development of a correctly applied discernment that shows the difference between ayoniso manisikara and yoniso manisikara?

Are the suttas referring to actual people who are accessible to meet and talk to and receive reliable guidance from or are they primarily referring to the words written by good persons, the Buddha's words, the suttas? Both? And does good persons also include those who see and understand enough to have confidence in the teachings but might not have yet attained prescribed milestones.

And

Are there different types or levels of yoniso manasikara….

Is yoniso manasikara an applied attention that sees through ignorance/delusion? Or a seeing that straddles ignorance/delusion and the absence of ignorance/delusion providing, a wise seeing of and between the two that brings increased understanding?

and/or is it a kind of attuned attention bringing increased understanding, that naturally happens when there is no ignorance/delusion?
ssasny
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by ssasny »

Hi, I looked on line and found this short essay on the subject which looks good.

https://bodhimonastery.org/docs/novdec05bb.pdf

I appreciated this sentence:
"Therefore, yoniso manasikara is not philosophical speculation but reflection built on observation seeking to understand how things originate through conditions, that is, it is investigation of dependent origination."

Ven. Bodhi used to live at this monastery but now resides at Chuang Yen monastery in Carmel, NY.
Misty
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Re: ayoniso manasikara

Post by Misty »

Hi!
Thank you, I'm looking forward to reading it
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