Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Post by Ceisiwr »

In the Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad we find the following
Not one with awareness within (nāntahprajñaṃ) not one with awareness
without (na bahihprajñaṃ), not one with awareness of both, not a mass of
awareness (prajñānaghanam), not awareness nor non-awareness (na prajñaṃ). They consider the fourth quarter [of brahman thus]:
unseen, supramundane, ungraspable, without characteristic, unthinkable,
indescribable, whose essence is the perception of the one self, the stilling
of the manifest world (prapañcopaśamaṃ) calm (śāntaṃ) auspicious,
nondual (advaitaṃ) That is the self, that ought to be perceived
We see something similar in Snp 4.11
“Na saññasaññī na visaññasaññī,
Nopi asaññī na vibhūtasaññī;
Evaṁ sametassa vibhoti rūpaṁ,
Saññānidānā hi papañcasaṅkhā”.

“Without normal perception or distorted perception;
not lacking perception, nor perceiving what has disappeared.
Form disappears for one proceeding thus;
for concepts of identity due to proliferation spring from perception.
Are both texts talking about the same meditative experience (the formless), but with the difference that for Snp it is seen through the lens of emptiness whilst for the Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad through the lens of the Self?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Microdose
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Re: Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Post by Microdose »

I’m wondering what would be the best way to find out where all doubts are removed
knotting
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Re: Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Post by knotting »

They both seem to be describing the arūpa-lokas, although the Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad contains the delusional identification of 'self'.

I'm not sure about your point on 'emptiness', I am a beginner with the suttas. I don't see the word 'suññatā' in the Buddha's description, though, so I'm not sure why you thought of it? (Apologies if this is a dumb question.)
Meggo
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Re: Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Post by Meggo »

The difference between a buddhist perspective and the Upanisads here is the inclusion of memory. Memory is the faculty which forms a constructed concept. This concept replaces the pure experience and is taken to be the experience itself. The concept though is permanent (because it can be reconstructed ad hoc ad libitum), is regarded to have a self/ existence and therefore has characteristics that can be desired. The equivalent buddhist experience lacks all of those things, because it is seen with right view.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:12 pm In the Māṇḍūkya Upaniṣad we find the following
Not one with awareness within (nāntahprajñaṃ) not one with awareness
without (na bahihprajñaṃ), not one with awareness of both, not a mass of
awareness (prajñānaghanam), not awareness nor non-awareness (na prajñaṃ). They consider the fourth quarter [of brahman thus]:
unseen, supramundane, ungraspable, without characteristic, unthinkable,
indescribable, whose essence is the perception of the one self, the stilling
of the manifest world (prapañcopaśamaṃ) calm (śāntaṃ) auspicious,
nondual (advaitaṃ) That is the self, that ought to be perceived
We see something similar in Snp 4.11
“Na saññasaññī na visaññasaññī,
Nopi asaññī na vibhūtasaññī;
Evaṁ sametassa vibhoti rūpaṁ,
Saññānidānā hi papañcasaṅkhā”.

“Without normal perception or distorted perception;
not lacking perception, nor perceiving what has disappeared.
Form disappears for one proceeding thus;
for concepts of identity due to proliferation spring from perception.
Are both texts talking about the same meditative experience (the formless) [...]?
Not necessarily at all. According to that very same Māṇḍūkyopaniṣad, paired with the Māṇḍukyakārikā and combining the parallels from the Chāndogyopaniṣad mentioning the "four quarters" of Brahman, the "fourth quarter" of Brahman is defined thus in light of the other three...

The first quarter of Brahman is Prakāśana Brahman, which is revealed to the awake yogin by the Bull of Heaven.
The second quarter of Brahman is Anantavān Brahman, which is revealed to the dreaming yogin by Agni
The third quarter of Brahman is Jyotiṣmān Brahman, which is revealed to the deep-sleeping yogin by beings described as resembling heavenly birds.
The fourth quarter of Brahman is the uncompounded "oṃ," which is revealed to the yogin, who is in the "turiya" state, by the Ātman.

Listen, my dear child, [...] this knowledge of the Brahman must be known in its four aspects. I am now revealing to you the first aspect. Know that the Brahman is prakāśavān (the manifest One). This first aspect in turn has four limbs; East, West, South and North. Through these four quarters, the Brahman appears as the manifest One or the prakāśavān. The One, the Indivisible, the Indescribable manifests as or in the four quarters and he who contemplates on these four manifest aspects of the Brahman attains to the state of Brahman and gets victory over all the manifest worlds. The vṛṣabha (bull) symbolises fertility, abundance, diffusion, generation, impregnation, and strength. When the power of tapas increases, it starts fertilising the consciousness and prepares it to hold the abundance of truth, Light, Dynamism, Love and Ānanda. One starts shining as the Supreme Reality shines, manifesting as the four directions — East, West, North and South [...] this is one pāda (quarter) of the Brahman .

[...]

Dear Satyakāma, I will declare to you the second pāda of Brahman. Know that the Brahman is anantavān or endless. Of this endless Brahman the earth is one quarter, the sky is one quarter, heaven is one quarter, the ocean is one quarter. This, dear friend, is another aspect of the Brahman, consisting of four quarters and this aspect is called anantavat (endless). The Earth, Space , the Heaven and the Ocean, all of these are symbolic representations of vastness, largeness and infinitude. One experiences the ānantya or infinitude or endlessness in all these four. That infinitude indeed is the nature of the Brahman and whoever holds this infinitude in one’s consciousness becomes endowed with the virtue of endlessness, he becomes Brahman, the endless, and attains the endless worlds of higher realms.

[...]

Satyakāma! I shall teach you the third pāda of Brahman. Know that the Brahman is jyotiṣmān (the most Effulgent One). This aspect of the Brahman too consists of four things — Agni, the sun, the moon, and lightning. In all these four, O Satyakāma, see the Brahman as jyotiṣmān or the most Effulgent, the most Luminous One. Knowing the Brahman as jyotiṣmān and meditating upon him as the Effulgent, one becomes effulgent in this world.
(Chāndogyopaniṣad 4.4–4.8)

So, in a way, who knows what the Upaniṣadic meditation is concerning! They symbolize it with a "sound," namely "oṃ." What it actually is, since it does not refer to merely the pronunciation, articulation, or intonement of the given phonetics, is a bit of a mystery by the reckoning of the "oṃ mysticism" itself.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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