Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Vivekananda
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Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Vivekananda »

Greetings,
As i am ordained in a tration ,which values the Vsm. I followed the understanding of he first Jhāna for a long time. For the practical approach, it still does not matter to me much, if there is thinking or not present, because my aim is to go successively deeper and deeper..

But nevertheless after reading the following analysis, i got convinced, that wholesome thoughts, are present in the first Jhāna:

http://blog.buddha-vacana.org/why-vitak ... -in-jhana/

Best wishes from the forest.
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nirodh27
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi Vivekananda,

Welcome to the dark side :tongue:

That blog post was actually one of the first thing that started my change in understanding: it is good to see that there are new posts again there of 2022. I will post here something that you might want to look about this matter when I have time: resources about this are scattered in books, articles and the internet.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:09 am Greetings,
As i am ordained in a tration ,which values the Vsm. I followed the understanding of he first Jhāna for a long time. For the practical approach, it still does not matter to me much, if there is thinking or not present, because my aim is to go successively deeper and deeper..

But nevertheless after reading the following analysis, i got convinced, that wholesome thoughts, are present in the first Jhāna:

http://blog.buddha-vacana.org/why-vitak ... -in-jhana/

Best wishes from the forest.
What are your thoughts on vitakka and saṅkappa being synonyms? Thoughts is really a rather vague word. Even a psychopath can just think “renunciation, renunciation” no?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Vivekananda
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Vivekananda »

Well,
I am not a Pāli expert, thus the given analysis is pretty much all I have, from theory on that.

From experience, I would say that Saṅkappa to me is more subtle, than vitakka, as long as vitakka are "thoughts".

It appears to me, that as you get deeper and deeper the verbalized thoughts calm down and there remain intentions.
As soon as the factor of passaddhi gets settled, and there are no sensuality directed thoughts, it is Jhāna.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:17 am Well,
I am not a Pāli expert, thus the given analysis is pretty much all I have, from theory on that.

From experience, I would say that Saṅkappa to me is more subtle, than vitakka, as long as vitakka are "thoughts".

It appears to me, that as you get deeper and deeper the verbalized thoughts calm down and there remain intentions.
As soon as the factor of passaddhi gets settled, and there are no sensuality directed thoughts, it is Jhāna.
They are synonyms though. They basically mean the same thing. I understand vitakka and vicara more as wholesome or unwholesome intentions, wholesome intentions leading to a citta that is still, calm, collected, and has (some measure) of peace in samadhi. Remember, Jhanas are called mini-nibbanas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Vivekananda
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Vivekananda »

Big Highlighted to support the claim:
takketi
PE1 Pali English Dictionary(PTS)
[denom. of tarka] to think, reflect, reason, argue DA.I,106; DhsA.142. -- attānaṁ t. to have self-confidence, to trust oneself J.I,273, 396, 468; III,233. (Page 292)
Ergo, rightly (vi) reflecting. More in a verbal sense.

kappeti
PE1 Pali English Dictionary(PTS)
[Der. from kappa, cp. Sk. kṛpa shape, form; *qǔrep caus. from. fr. *qǔer=Sk. kr, karoti to shape, to make, cp. karoti] to cause to fit, to create, build, construct, arrange, prepare, order.
correctly (sam) forming one's attitude. More from the heart, causing it to fit.
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mjaviem
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by mjaviem »

Vitakka seems to mean intentional thinking. Not any automatic thinking but the intention about something. So it seems the subsiding of vitakka is the subsiding of intentions about anything which doesn't mean brain activity going dead. Is it so?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:59 am Big Highlighted to support the claim:
takketi
PE1 Pali English Dictionary(PTS)
[denom. of tarka] to think, reflect, reason, argue DA.I,106; DhsA.142. -- attānaṁ t. to have self-confidence, to trust oneself J.I,273, 396, 468; III,233. (Page 292)
Ergo, rightly (vi) reflecting. More in a verbal sense.

kappeti
PE1 Pali English Dictionary(PTS)
[Der. from kappa, cp. Sk. kṛpa shape, form; *qǔrep caus. from. fr. *qǔer=Sk. kr, karoti to shape, to make, cp. karoti] to cause to fit, to create, build, construct, arrange, prepare, order.
correctly (sam) forming one's attitude. More from the heart, causing it to fit.
I see V&V as being thought as in intention, purpose, plan.
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
saṅkappa
masculine
intention; purpose

PTS Pali English Dictionary
saṅkappa
thought, intention, purpose, plan
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:19 pm Vitakka seems to mean intentional thinking. Not any automatic thinking but the intention about something. So it seems the subsiding of vitakka is the subsiding of intentions about anything which doesn't mean brain activity going dead. Is it so?
It’s where you no longer move the mind by directing it to samadhi. The transition between the 1st and 2nd is one of resting in samadhi.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:55 pm It’s where you no longer move the mind by directing it to samadhi. The transition between the 1st and 2nd is one of resting in samadhi.
Sounds good. Thank you.
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by santa100 »

Vivekananda wrote:As i am ordained in a tration ,which values the Vsm...
But nevertheless after reading the following analysis, i got convinced, that wholesome thoughts, are present in the first Jhāna:
"wholesome thoughts" are pretty vague. Since your tradition values the Vsm, instead of relying on various modern authors' opinions, simply go back to the Vsm source for clarification. Notice the Vsm's explanation does not say about just any wholesome thoughts, instead it's a specific "thought" that directly "hitting upon" (and eventually "anchor"/vicara) the specific object of meditation:
Vsm. wrote:And now, in order to show the factors associated with it, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought is said. [142] Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant.25 It has the characteristic of directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. Sustained thinking (vicaraóa) is sustained thought (vicára); continued sustainment (anusañcaraóa), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

Vivekananda wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:17 am It appears to me, that as you get deeper and deeper the verbalized thoughts calm down and there remain intentions.
Hi Vivekananda,

Here there are a couple of resources that you might want to look upon:

First and foremost, the parallels of the MA (101 and 102) are the best reference to see how Vitakka&Vicara is used. As Analayo says in his MA study, the ordering of the sutta is better in the agamas. There's also more detail with examples of actual verbal reflections done by the Buddha himself.

Here I synthetize the progression:

Step 1 > pre-jhanic thought and reflection so to abandon the hindrances (mostly done by the analysis of the drawbacks of sensuality and the goodness of renunciation: more details of the process are in the sister sutta about the two kinds of thought)

Step 2 > 1st jhanic thought and reflection (only akusala thoughts of four types: renunciation, non ill-will, non-cruelty and "in accordance to the Dhamma") that reinforces your knowledge and acquisition of the Dhamma. In the sutta you clearly see a u-turn from a mind that finally "leaps up" to renunciation after a lot of hard work (of reflection and observation). Here we can see that the first Jhana is not an exercise of concentration, but the result of turning your values upside-down (see for example here AN9.41 that I quoted below). The skills required are wisdom and/or trust in the Buddha.

Step 3 > When you are ready, stabilized into renunciation and in a state of mind in accordance of it and you see that your mind produces only kusala-thought spontaneously and so you're confident that the mind is in check (he produces thoughts, reflections and intentions in accordance with Dhamma) every form of verbal thought and reflection can be switched off so not to tire the mind and have a pleasure that is born from unification/concentration. Thought is simply not useful anymore, and it is seen as a disturbance to the peace. So it naturally stops (noble silence: second jhana) and you dwell with a mind free of defilements, naturally in check and, since there's no effort or requirements of sort, the abiding can be enjoyed for prolonged periods of time.

AN 9.41:
Then Ven. Ananda, together with Tapussa the householder, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “Tapussa the householder, here, has said to me, ‘Venerable Ananda, sir, we are householders who indulge in sensuality, delight in sensuality, enjoy sensuality, rejoice in sensuality. For us—indulging in sensuality, delighting in sensuality, enjoying sensuality, rejoicing in sensuality—renunciation seems like a sheer drop-off. Yet I’ve heard that in this doctrine & discipline the hearts of the very young monks leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. So right here is where this doctrine & discipline is contrary to the great mass of people: i.e., [this issue of] renunciation.’”

“So it is, Ananda. So it is. Even I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened Bodhisatta, thought: ‘Renunciation is good. Seclusion is good.’ But my heart didn’t leap up at renunciation, didn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: ‘What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn’t leap up at renunciation, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?’ Then the thought occurred to me: ‘I haven’t seen the drawback of sensual pleasures; I haven’t pursued [that theme]. I haven’t understood the reward of renunciation; I haven’t familiarized myself with it. That’s why my heart doesn’t leap up at renunciation, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.’

[1] “Then the thought occurred to me: ‘If, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of renunciation, I were to familiarize myself with it, there’s the possibility that my heart would leap up at renunciation, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.’

“So at a later time, having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
This familiarization with the rewards of renunciation is the key to enter first jhana and stay in it.

Here you can find the agama suttas in question in which you can discern for yourself the process:

https://buddhistuniversity.net/content/ ... hs/ma2_bdk

Another great resource is this little book, you can go straight to the Vitakka&Vicara part:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gT1rCJ ... vzcuX/view

Kumara makes a straigtforward analysis dividing with a clear line EBT with Later material, while for example you can find a sort of "mapping" of the EBT practice (practice, not the doctrine that it is clearly different) with the later one in Bucknell: this is the only free resource:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... l_1993.pdf

Another resource is Stuart-Fox, again showing the problems by EBT and later understanding:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/i ... /8759/2666

I think that the quest to "map" EBT jhanas with later understandings is an interesting one that could be developed further because new hints can come both for the EBT and the Visuddhimagga practitioner, but it is clear that if we take the suttas alone, this is already a well-described, very early process that one can add as an arrow (THE arrow?) to develop the path.

I'm sure that I'm missing some other resources, but that should be enough!

With Metta!
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Vivekananda
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Vivekananda »

santa100 wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:45 pm "wholesome thoughts" are pretty vague. Since your tradition values the Vsm, instead of relying on various modern authors' opinions, simply go back to the Vsm source for clarification. Notice the Vsm's explanation does not say about just any wholesome thoughts, instead it's a specific "thought" that directly "hitting upon" (and eventually "anchor"/vicara) the specific object of meditation
Greetings,

I do not know if you ever went to a meditation course or had an interview with a meditation teacher.
Certainly such a situation will vary due to various circumstances, e.g. the english language skill, bodily conditions, time of the day,... but for me as a guest in a foreign country these situations were so far rather a bit tense. Especially when the discussion would turn to the Jhānas, as here we are supposed to have any thoughts in Jhāna.

Nevertheless you have served here a good example of how either the translation is unsuitable, or Ven. Buddhaghosa's expressions are.

Why ?!

Because the Sayadawgyi is said to have learned english via a Vsm. translation, and thus I can very well understamd why the instructions, due to language barrier, are not the most suited ones.

I am not a Pāli expert, but i did some research on a few terms used in the Vsm.; to support the claim above please have a look at this term:

vikkhambhana-pahāna, which is usually translated as "suppressing" the hindrances.
To me a more proper translation would be "unsupporting" the hindrances.
PE1 Pali English Dictionary(PTS)
[Sk. khambha & sthambha] 1. prop, support, in °kata “making a prop,” i. e. with his arms akimbo Vin.II,213=IV.188. -- 2. obstruction, stiffening, paraly‹-› sis, in ūru° “stiffening of the thigh” M.I,237 (through pain); J.V,23 (through fear). See also chambheti & thambha. (Page 234)
When you get such one-pointed, tension creating instructions, there is now wonder, that humans like Ven. Kumara go astray and claim that there are wo seperate Jhānas.

What he explains about his meditative experiences, sounds much like the term frank k coined: Jhāna constipation, aka blocked energy channels, insufficient preparation.

Further on Bhante Kumarara's book, I do not like his claim, that you can walk in Jhāna, esp. as in the prelude of the Suta it says clearly:
...having gone to the foot of a tree, he sits down...
And of course, the fourth Jhāna completely uproots such claims, as breath is a thorn, how'd you do that ?!

Best wishes from the forest.

Ps: Sādhu, nirodh27, iwas wondering, where to read Āgamas.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Vivekananda wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:52 am

Ps: Sādhu, nirodh27, iwas wondering, where to read Āgamas.
SuttaCentral or DharmaPearls

https://suttacentral.net/

https://canon.dharmapearls.net/
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

Vivekananda wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:52 am
This discussion reminded me of a Book of Polak that I've read sometimes ago, but he really influenced my understanding in the later years:

https://phavi.umcs.pl/at/attachments/20 ... iology.pdf

This is a book that I think takes very seriously the connection EBT < - > Buddhaghosa and I think that you could find it very interesting.
I am not a Pāli expert, but i did some research on a few terms used in the Vsm.; to support the claim above please have a look at this term:

vikkhambhana-pahāna, which is usually translated as "suppressing" the hindrances.
To me a more proper translation would be "unsupporting" the hindrances.
This is so interesting that would require a thread on its own. Btw I think that we should reason about this two parts of the Path of Purification:
So in this case it should be understood that seclusion by suppression (suspension) of lust is indicated by the phrase quite secluded from sense desires, and seclusion by suppression (suspension) of [all] five hindrances by the phrase secluded from unprofitable things
Here actually we see the translator gloss suppression with suspension, that is less strong. Many modern teachers goes with suppression (but gentle!), btw all the problem is about the one-pointedness that directly collides with the vicara that is the "wandering" of when we reflect on something. This tension is treated both by Stuart-Fox (that have looked to the agamas with interesting findings) and Polak.

Back to the suppression, I think that the meaning that is intended can be inferred from here:
111. (i) Herein, when any of the mundane kinds of concentration suppresses
opposing states such as the hindrances, that act of suppressing, which is like
the pressing down of water-weed by placing a porous pot on weed-filled water,
is called abandoning by suppressing.
But the suppression of only the hindrances
is given in the text thus: “And there is abandoning of the hindrances by
suppression in one who develops the first jhána” (Paþis I 27). However, that
should be understood as so stated because of the obviousness [of the suppression
then]. For even before and after the jhána as well hindrances do not invade
consciousness suddenly; but applied thought, etc., [are suppressed] only at the
moment of actual absorption [in the second jhána, etc.,]
and so the suppression
of the hindrances then is obvious.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
The pressing down of water-weed is a strange metaphor, I cannot understand it clearly :thinking: The water goes inside the pot? :thinking:
When you get such one-pointed, tension creating instructions, there is now wonder, that humans like Ven. Kumara go astray and claim that there are wo seperate Jhānas.
My theory is this is actually a Jhana that comes from a mix of the last three (the less-wisdom-filled) parts of MN20. It is actually a mix of the third (to look somewhere else, it's not in the quote below, but in the full sutta) and the fifth (mind vs mind with coercion)
“Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then when he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him and subside, and with the abandoning of them his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. When he examines the danger in those thoughts…When he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them…When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts…When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him…and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated.
In MN20 we can see that those (even crushing mind with mind!) are valid ways to get the mind quieted and collected (I would not use concentrated following Analayo in a recent video that I've seen and many others), even if ofc the ones that can bring direct wisdom are the thinking and wandering (reflecting) about the drawbacks and the escape so to realize the u-turn: every tactic of MN20 have more wisdom: we can even map the:
So too abandoning: abandoning is threefold too, like full-understanding, that is, (i) abandoning by suppressing, (ii) abandoning by substitution of opposites, and (iii) abandoning by cutting off
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
with the five strategies in MN20: 3,4,5 are suppression strategies, 1st is substitution. We lack 2, that it is the reflection part and that is the tiring work.

About the subtistution the path of purification reports:
(ii) But what is called abandoning by substitution of opposites is the
abandoning of any given state that ought to be abandoned through the means
of a particular factor of knowledge, which as a constituent of insight is opposed
to it, like the abandoning of darkness at night through the means of a light.
[694] It is in fact the abandoning firstly of the [false] view of individuality through
the means of delimitation of mentality-materiality; the abandoning of both the
no-cause view and the fictitious-cause view and also of the stain of doubt through
the means of discerning conditions; the abandoning of apprehension of a
conglomeration as “I” and “mine” through the means of comprehension by
groups; the abandoning of perception of the path in what is not the path through
the means of the definition of what is the path and what is not the path; the
abandoning of the annihilation view through the means of seeing rise; the
abandoning of the eternity view through the means of seeing fall; the
abandoning of the perception of non-terror in what is terror through the means
of appearance as terror; the abandoning of the perception of enjoyment through
the means of seeing danger; the abandoning of the perception of delight through
the means of the contemplation of dispassion (revulsion); the abandoning of
lack of desire for deliverance through the means of desire for deliverance; the
abandoning of non-reflection through the means of reflection; the abandoning
of not looking on equably through the means of equanimity; the abandoning of
apprehension contrary to truth through the means of conformity.
113. And also in the case of the eighteen principal insights the abandoning
by substitution of opposites is: (1) the abandoning of the perception of the
perception of permanence, through the means of the contemplation of
impermanence; (2) of the perception of pleasure, through the means of the
contemplation of pain; (3) of the perception of self, through the means of the
contemplation of not-self; (4) of delight, through the means of the contemplation
of dispassion (revulsion); (5) of greed, through the means of the contemplation
of fading away; (6) of originating, through the means of the contemplation of
cessation; (7) of grasping, through the means of the contemplation of
relinquishment; (8) of the perception of compactness, through the means of the
contemplation of destruction; (9) of accumulation, through the means of the
contemplation of fall; (10) of the perception of lastingness, through the means of
the contemplation of change; (11) of the sign, through the means of the
contemplation of the signless; (12) of desire, through the means of the
contemplation of the desireless; (13) of misinterpreting (insisting), through the
means of the contemplation of voidness; (14) of misinterpreting (insisting) due
to grasping at a core, through the means of insight into states that is higher
understanding; (15) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to confusion, through
the means of correct knowledge and vision; (16) of misinterpreting (insisting)
due to reliance [on formations], through the means of the contemplation of danger
[in them]; (17) of non-reflection, through the means of the contemplation of
reflection; (18) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to bondage, through means of
contemplation of turning away (cf. Paþis I 47).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
Those are also many of the possible reflections that one can do in pre-jhanic (understanding) and the first jhanic (Reinforcing, new insights) state. It is no wonder that one can tire the mind there!
Further on Bhante Kumarara's book, I do not like his claim, that you can walk in Jhāna, esp. as in the prelude of the Suta it says clearly:
...having gone to the foot of a tree, he sits down...
And of course, the fourth Jhāna completely uproots such claims, as breath is a thorn, how'd you do that ?!
Third and Fourth Jhanas are different beasts, I think that there is less material available also.
Owing to the tranquilization of three formations: owing to the tranquilization of what three formations? In one who has attained the second jhána the verbal formations consisting in applied and sustained thought are quite tranquilized.
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