Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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nirodh27
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

Another wonderful passage is this found in the Nibbana Sermons (17)
Yāyaṃ, bhante Ānanda, samādhi na cābhinato na cāpanato na ca
sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritavato, vimuttattā ṭhito, ṭhitattā santusito, santusitattā
no paritassati. Ayaṃ, bhante, samādhi kiṃphalo vutto Bhagavatā?
"That concentration, Venerable Ānanda, which is neither turned towards nor
turned outwards, which is not a vow constrained by preparations, one that is
steady because of freedom, contented because of steadiness and not hankering
because of contentment, Venerable Sir, with what fruit has the Exalted One
associated that concentration?"
-------------------------------
Translation Bodhi (2012: 1302):
“Bhante Ānanda, the concentration that does not lean forward and does not
bend back, and that is not reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the
defilements]—by being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by
being content, one is not agitated. Bhante Ānanda, what did the Blessed One
say this concentration has as its fruit?”
SĀ 557:
「若無相心三昧,不涌、不沒,解脫已住,住已解脫。尊者阿難!世尊說
此何果、何功德?」
(CBETA, T02, no. 99, p. 146, a16-18)
-------------------------------
The question looks so highly compressed that the key words in it might need
some clarification. The two terms abhinata and apanata are suggestive of lust
and hate, as well as introversion and extroversion. This concentration is free
from these extreme attitudes. Whereas in ordinary concentration saṅkhāras, or
preparations, exercise some degree of control as the term vikkhambhana,
"propping up", "suppression", suggests, here there is no implication of any
forcible action as in a vow. Here the steadiness is born of freedom from that
very constriction.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/wp-cont ... ana-17.pdf
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Interestingly the parallels have “perception and examination” for vitakka & vicara.
27. “Furthermore, a monk is liberated from craving and eliminates bad and unwholesome qualities. With perception, examination, and calm thoughts, he delights in the first dhyāna and relaxes himself. Thus, a monk contemplates the attributes of principles as principles as a station of mindfulness.
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... 12_01.html
How does a dhyāna practitioner wax but say they are waning? That dhyāna practitioner is secluded from desire and secluded from bad and unskillful things. With perception and examination, this seclusion produces joy and happiness, and they accomplish and dwell in the first dhyāna.
https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... A_176.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Coëmgenu »

This is because, AFAIK, none of the mainstream Chinese sources preserve the "verbal" reading for vitarkavicāra when the term(s) is/are used in a dhyānic context. The most common two translations...

覺觀 & 尋伺

...are very "Theravādin," for lack of a better word.

The metaphor of the bell is ubiquitous in all Mahāyāna that I'm familiar with and comes from Sarvāstivāda AFAIK. The initial coarse strike of the bell and the associated attention is vitarka. The subsequent fine lingering and fading away of the tone of the bell is vicāra. This bell metaphor is taken to apply to all senses, not just the ear. It is mostly about attention and the placement of attention, as far as how the Chinese translators in ~400AD chose to translate the words. How they are used is another matter.

What about when we come to the manendriya (manas-faculty associated with the manas sense)?

The coarse vitarka becomes something like "recognition." The Chinese term 覺 is used usually for either Bodhi or pratisaṃvedayati. It means to encounter something with the intellect, or even "to experience" in this sense. In practice, it becomes something very difficult to tell apart from dharmasaṃjñā, if not a functional synonym.

It is actually the vicāra, in this fifth century Chinese framing (which is really a weird sort of "Central Asian/Northern Indian Bactrian/Tocharian Chinese framing"), that becomes much more like "internal (discursive) subverbal thought," because it is the vicāra that is what "lingers" as the reaction of the mind to the stimulus. It is "holding on" after the grasping has happened, but what it grasps is marked by constant change in the form of "fading away." Hence the tone of the bell (which is really a gong here in the Chinese context) transforms after its initial striking and becomes a set of transforming and fading tones.



The experience of hearing the sound is vital to understanding the metaphor, which is ultimately about a cognitive process, not a sensory one, that accompanies our experience of the senses.

This term for "vicāra," 觀, can be read as "observation," "beholding," "contemplating," "analysis," or "examination," and it is associated with "vipaśyanā" in later translations due to this semantic field. When we extend this to the manendriya, it seems reasonable that an immaterial conceptual notion would be contemplated, analyzed, examined, etc., via subverbal discourse. After all, there is no image to associate with a truly immaterial concept. I mean, all this is moot if some people can't mentally produce language-like internal discourse.

So, in conclusion, the terms used in the 400s to translate these terms into Chinese are not overly-friendly to the "(para-)linguistic" reading, but the metaphors transmitted alongside them are sufficiently abstract that the door is left open. Either vitarka or vicāra or both may or may not be subverbal from the Chinese textual evidence alone, but the received tradition of it (largely Mahāyāna), to the best of my knowledge, never makes the argument that it is, in any sūtras or śāstras that I am aware of at least. It is only in the so-called "esoteric" tradition of Buddhism mostly substantiated in Japan (and emerging textually much later than the EBTs, the Abhidharmika literature, and even the traditional Mahāyāna sūtras) is vitarkavicāra blatantly associated with language and internal "discursive" verbal thought. As far as I am familiar with the matter at least.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Microdose
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Microdose »

I see no problem in recollection of good thoughts that abide in practice

Often a times I sit down and internally speak with attention, it can speak wise words, to calm when feeling rushed, scan the body tell my attention to stay on breath, this is deeper Than ordinary thinking, it’s awareness using thoughts as a tool to be free from thought and be more inner focused, awareness guiding thoughts , vitakka , vichara is like a slip stream, it’s more effortless, these are not only preliminary jhana states they are able to be practiced and used functionally in daily life habits

All jhanas are kusala
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nirodh27
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:49 pmThis term for "vicāra," 觀, can be read as "observation," "beholding," "contemplating," "analysis," or "examination," and it is associated with "vipaśyanā" in later translations due to this semantic field. When we extend this to the manendriya, it seems reasonable that an immaterial conceptual notion would be contemplated, analyzed, examined, etc., via subverbal discourse. After all, there is no image to associate with a truly immaterial concept. I mean, all this is moot if some people can't mentally produce language-like internal discourse.
Hi Coëmgenu,

the fact that some people can have little to zero internal first-person is surprisingly a recent discovery,

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatch ... -1.5486969

precisely because their mind is perfectly apt to produce discourse that breach into speech, they proficiently understand verbal-instructions (like a narrative what-if description as the girl on cbc explains) in the way that the nikaya usually presents them:
“The thought occurred to me: ‘What if, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance.’ But my heart didn’t leap up at being without directed thought, didn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: ‘What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn’t leap up at being without directed thought, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?’ Then the thought occurred to me: ‘I haven’t seen the drawback of directed thought; I haven’t pursued that theme. I haven’t understood the reward of being without directed thought; I haven’t familiarized myself with it. That’s why my heart doesn’t leap up at being without directed thought, doesn’t grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.’
and they usually are totally unaware of the fact that other people have internal monologue. If you look at the interview in the article to one of those people, she says that his thought is more like "jot notes", so brief verbal statements and they are perfectly able to reproduce in his head verbalized thoughts of others, songs and, by all probability, Dhamma teachings.

So this thing about people that doesn't verbalize in a colloquial way is a non-problem for Vitakka&Vicara or Jhana instructions or for whatever reflection suggested since the dawn of time just like it is a non-problem if you don't sit under the root of a tree to do jhana. The main point is that there's reasoning and reflection about Dhamma in first jhana as seen in MA102 and many other sources and usually that is done by verbalization in the forms that are usual for that mind: vicara is there to say to the meditator "reflect on the teachings, on the drawbacks, on the escape while you are in first jhana" so that you penetrate the teachings and you see for yourself by a work of imagination and inductive reasoning that they are the best route for well-being and happiness now and in the future.

vicara = wandering and inspecting a Dhamma theme - so to appreciate his truthfulness and interiorize the consequent behaviour - after the abandoning of the hindrances. That directly challenges any possible presence of Ekagatta as single-pointedness focus on one object. It is one or the other: tertium non datur.

This is actually how my first encounter with jhana was like due to the instructions of Ajahn Brahm (other masters are similar, like Shaila Catherine):
Abandoning the past means not even thinking about your work, your family, your commitments, your responsibilities, your history, the good or bad times you had as a child .." you abandon all past experiences by showing no interest in them at all. You become someone who has no history during the time that you meditate. You do not even think about where you are from, where you were born, who your parents were or what your upbringing was like. All of that history is renounced in meditation. In this way, everyone here on the retreat becomes equal, just a meditator.
It becomes unimportant how many years you have been meditating, whether you are an old hand or a beginner. If you abandon all that history then we are all equal and free. We are freeing ourselves of some of these concerns, perceptions and thoughts that limit us and which stop us from developing the peace born of letting go. So every 'part' of your history you finally let go of, even the history of what has happened to you so far in this retreat, even the memory of what happened to you just a moment ago! In this way, you carry no burden from the past into the present. Whatever has just happened, you are no longer interested in it and you let it go. You do not allow the past to reverberate in your mind.
Some people have the view that if they take up the past for contemplation they can somehow learn from it and solve the problems of the past. However, you should understand that when you gaze at the past, you invariably look through distorted lenses. Whatever you think it was like, in truth
it was not quite like that! This is why people have arguments about what actually happened, even a few moments ago. It is well known to police who investigate traffic accidents that even though the accident may have happened only half an hour ago, two different eyewitnesses, both completely
honest, will give different accounts. Our memory is untrustworthy. If you consider just how unreliable memory is, then you do not put value on thinking about the past. Then you can let it go.
You can bury it, just as you bury a person who has died. You place them in a coffin then bury it, or cremate it, and it is done with, finished. Do not linger on the past. Do not continue to carry the coffins of dead moments on your head! If you do, then you are weighing yourself down with heavy burdens which do not really belong to you. Let all of the past go and you have the ability to be free in the present moment.
As for the future, the anticipations, fears, plans, and expectations-let all of that go too. The Lord Buddha once said about the future 'whatever you think it will be, it will always be something different’! This future is known to the wise as uncertain, unknown and so unpredictable. It is often
complete stupidity to anticipate the future, and always a great waste of your time to think of the future in meditation.
Those are the three incipits of the book of Brahm about jhana: https://bswa.org/bswp/wp-content/upload ... tation.pdf
The goal of this meditation is the beautiful silence, stillness and clarity of mind
'Silence is so much more productive of wisdom and clarity than thinking. '
'Do absolutely nothing and see how smooth and beautiful and timeless the breath can appear
The suttas presents a wholly different picture in which the past and the future, our own experience must be seen with effort with lens, Dhamma lens (so not "I was in the past" but "In the past there was dukkha dependant of what?"). Past and Future are essential to reason and reflect about the drawbacks and the escape. For the Buddha, thinking (not as a parrot, but reflecting) is way more productive than silence as it is shown in MA102: silence is a possibility and a reward of your effort and thinking, just like when you have all the cows in check in the yard and you can finally rest. When you abandon the hindrances by reflection about the drawbacks at least temporarily, you have a gem in your hand: a mind that favors renunciation and can look at reality with lens in accordance to the Dhamma: that is the place in which you can really have insights into dhammic teachings that are expressed verbally and you have to be good at recollecting (sati) them

Just to be clear what is at stake:

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm

A lay disciple once told me how he had "fluked" a deep Jhana while meditating at home. His wife thought he had died and sent for an ambulance. He was rushed to hospital in a wail of loud sirens. In the emergency room, there was no heartbeat registered on the E.C.G., nor brain activity to be seen by the E.E.G. So the doctor on put defibrillators on his chest to reactivate his heart. Even though he was being bounced up and down on the hospital bed through the force of the electric shocks, he didn't feel a thing! When he emerged from the Jhana in the emergency room, perfectly all right, he had no knowledge of how he had got there, nor of ambulances and sirens, nor of body-jerking defibrillators. All that long time that he was in Jhana, he was fully aware, but only of bliss. This is an example of what is meant by the five senses shutting down within the experience of Jhana.

SUMMARY OF THE LANDMARKS OF ALL JHANAS

It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:

             1. There is no possibility of thought;

2. No decision making process is available;

3. There is no perception of time;

4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;

5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn't move; and

6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation.

 

These are the features of Jhana. So during a deep meditation, if one wonders whether it is Jhana or not, one can be certain it is not! No such thinking can exist within the stillness of Jhana. These features will only be recognized on emergence from a Jhana, using reviewing mindfulness once the mind can move again.
1, 2, 4, 5 directly contraddicts the suttas: Reflection is there, Decision making process is there and it is reinforced due to reflection, You are in the best place of the world to gain comprehension of Dhamma, you take a teaching and wander inside the teaching and between teachings changing subject.

And ofc one can land even in worse territories, like the "light jhanas" instructions: http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm

My "quest" about first and second jhana started in the moment that I've seen Corrado Pensa (that thinks that jhanas = total onepointedness as teached from his masters) actually advise against practicing jhana and, at the same time, when I've tried really hard to practice jhanas for one year (celibacy, retires, 2 hours a day without skipping one session) I've seen the ecstasy of strong concentration, but not the wisdom that later I've discovered it is all that matters for EBT jhanas, in particular the first one. Thought, that is seen as alien to the jhanas, is actually the vehicle to arrive there and the protagonist of the first one.

The importance of this is seen perfectly by William Chu (taken from Frankk's blog):
Many people who buy into this interpretation that vitakka is "directed application of attention" come from a certain assumption--the assumption that jhanas are about opening up to a pre-verbal/non-conceptual present moment. Therefore these people cannot conceive that one can "meditate with thought."

But jhanas in early Buddhist texts are teleological--they are guided and framed by Buddhist values and goals, and are not non-judgmental acceptance of whatever there is. These Buddhist values and goals (e.g. dispassion) are first internalized (hence "sutava/well-learned"), internally recited (hence vitakka/directed thinking), internally reviewed (hence vicara/evaluative thinking), and then steadily implemented (hence mindfulness) so that mental defilements are de-conditioned from the mind. All these Buddhist ideas--well-learnedness, mindfulness, vitakka, vicara, etc.--serve a consistent and concerted purpose.

Yes, the de-conditioning process may eventually take on a non-thinking turn (second jhana and above), but that is, only after the verbal instructions are already so internalized and familiar to the meditator, that Buddhist values and goals are guiding him in a non-verbal, intuitive way (hence, first jhana CAN be a basis for full liberation, but higher jhanas serve as even more effective tools).
(and that brings to the mind the passage that I cannot find now about the suggestion to the meditator to not try to pass to second jhana too early)

Another great contribution of Chu:
In developmental psychology, we know that very small children often learn how to perform a chore by repeating the verbal instruction they have received from their parents. They would repeat verbatim what they were told, even imitating the voice and mannerism in which that instruction was first given. To master a chore is a performative act, guided by a narrative, which serves as a guideline and a reminder. In the same way, novice meditators place themselves in a routine, guided by the dhamma lessons they have internalized, enunciated to themselves in the form of skillful vitakka and vicara. The psychic voice of the Buddha or awakened devas who speak to meditators, in a way, are metaphorical embodiments of the remembered Dhamma lessons, of one's conscience and the inner teacher that one has groomed over the course of practice. Vitakka and vicara in this understanding, play an indispensable and fundamental role in what is widely known in pedagogy, and also underscore why it is so important to be a "well-learned" disciple in the Buddhist context. A "well-learned" noble disciple is one who knows the lessons by rote, in their full breadth and scope, and has learned to instruct himself internally via vitakka and vicara.
As a joking note in the article we can find: "Hulburt said having an inner monologue can make it easier for people to create a sequential plan and solve logical problems". Given that the Buddha resolved the problem of Dukkha and created the noble eightfold path, we can infer that the Buddha had strong inner monologue.
So, in conclusion, the terms used in the 400s to translate these terms into Chinese are not overly-friendly to the "(para-)linguistic" reading, but the metaphors transmitted alongside them are sufficiently abstract that the door is left open. Either vitarka or vicāra or both may or may not be subverbal from the Chinese textual evidence alone, but the received tradition of it (largely Mahāyāna), to the best of my knowledge, never makes the argument that it is, in any sūtras or śāstras that I am aware of at least.
I'm not an expert of this so I'll just throw some references to you taken from notes (again) of William Chu:
Yogācārabhūmi (T1579. 302b) tells us that vitakka
and vicāra are connected with volition (cetanā) and
discernment (prajñā), respectively; These are in turn
connected with “directed thought” and “evaluation,”
respectively, rather than with “applied and sustained
attention”
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... s-and.html
Mahaprajnaparamita-sastra (T25n1509) tells us that
vitakka and vicāra are coarse thinking (cu-nian) and
subtle thinking (xi-nian), respectively
Geoff Shatz: “Sarvāstivāda, Sautrāntika, and Yogācāra
ābhidharmikas consistently define vitakka & vicāra as two
types of ‘mental discourse’ (manojalpa, lit: ‘mind-talk’). For
example, Vasubandhu defines vitakka as ‘mental discourse
which investigates’ (paryeṣako manojalpa) and vicāra as
‘mental discourse which reflects’ (pratyavekṣako manojalpa).
Vitakka is considered to be coarse (cittsyaudārikatā) and
vicāra comparatively more subtle (cittsyasūkṣmatā)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Samiddhi, on being asked, ‘Based on what do thoughts & resolves arise in a person?’ you have answered, ‘Based on name & form.’
- AN 9.14

From the commentary:
"Intentions and thoughts are thoughts that are intentions" (sankappavitakka ti sankappabhuta vitakka). This is said because the two words, sankappa and vitakka, are used almost interchangeably in the texts.”
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:49 pm This is because, AFAIK, none of the mainstream Chinese sources preserve the "verbal" reading for vitarkavicāra when the term(s) is/are used in a dhyānic context. The most common two translations...

覺觀 & 尋伺

...are very "Theravādin," for lack of a better word.

The metaphor of the bell is ubiquitous in all Mahāyāna that I'm familiar with and comes from Sarvāstivāda AFAIK. The initial coarse strike of the bell and the associated attention is vitarka. The subsequent fine lingering and fading away of the tone of the bell is vicāra. This bell metaphor is taken to apply to all senses, not just the ear. It is mostly about attention and the placement of attention, as far as how the Chinese translators in ~400AD chose to translate the words. How they are used is another matter.

What about when we come to the manendriya (manas-faculty associated with the manas sense)?

The coarse vitarka becomes something like "recognition." The Chinese term 覺 is used usually for either Bodhi or pratisaṃvedayati. It means to encounter something with the intellect, or even "to experience" in this sense. In practice, it becomes something very difficult to tell apart from dharmasaṃjñā, if not a functional synonym.

It is actually the vicāra, in this fifth century Chinese framing (which is really a weird sort of "Central Asian/Northern Indian Bactrian/Tocharian Chinese framing"), that becomes much more like "internal (discursive) subverbal thought," because it is the vicāra that is what "lingers" as the reaction of the mind to the stimulus. It is "holding on" after the grasping has happened, but what it grasps is marked by constant change in the form of "fading away." Hence the tone of the bell (which is really a gong here in the Chinese context) transforms after its initial striking and becomes a set of transforming and fading tones.



The experience of hearing the sound is vital to understanding the metaphor, which is ultimately about a cognitive process, not a sensory one, that accompanies our experience of the senses.

This term for "vicāra," 觀, can be read as "observation," "beholding," "contemplating," "analysis," or "examination," and it is associated with "vipaśyanā" in later translations due to this semantic field. When we extend this to the manendriya, it seems reasonable that an immaterial conceptual notion would be contemplated, analyzed, examined, etc., via subverbal discourse. After all, there is no image to associate with a truly immaterial concept. I mean, all this is moot if some people can't mentally produce language-like internal discourse.

So, in conclusion, the terms used in the 400s to translate these terms into Chinese are not overly-friendly to the "(para-)linguistic" reading, but the metaphors transmitted alongside them are sufficiently abstract that the door is left open. Either vitarka or vicāra or both may or may not be subverbal from the Chinese textual evidence alone, but the received tradition of it (largely Mahāyāna), to the best of my knowledge, never makes the argument that it is, in any sūtras or śāstras that I am aware of at least. It is only in the so-called "esoteric" tradition of Buddhism mostly substantiated in Japan (and emerging textually much later than the EBTs, the Abhidharmika literature, and even the traditional Mahāyāna sūtras) is vitarkavicāra blatantly associated with language and internal "discursive" verbal thought. As far as I am familiar with the matter at least.
Thank you for all that. I remember now Charles Patton saying that the parallels were translated with a certain understanding in mind by the translators. Its likely they were influenced by Abhidharma definitions. What are your thoughts on the relationship between vitakka and saṅkappa? The suttas mostly treat them as synonyms. Personally, I think a better understanding of saṅkappa will give a better understanding of vitakka. Do you know if they are also used interchangeably in the sutras?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Tch’an king, a Dhyānasūtra, has some interesting things to say on vitakka-vicāra a quoted in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra
Avoiding desires and bad dharmas
A person enters into the first dhyāna,
Furnished with examination (savitarka) and judgment (savicāra),
Coming from detachment (vivekaja), which is joy (prīti) and happiness (sukha).

Avoiding the flames of lust,
He is endowed with clear cool absorption.
Happy like a person who, tormented by the heat,
Enters into a cold pool.

As in the poor man who has found a treasure,
Vitarka of a great joyfulness moves his mind.
He analyzes it: this is vicāra.
This is how he enters the first dhyāna.

He knows that vitarka and vicāra disturb his mind,
Although good, he must separate himself from them,
For it is only on a calm sea
That the movement of the waves is not seen.

When a very weary man
Lies down to sleep in peace,
Any call to him
Strongly disturbs his mind.

In the same way, for the absorbed man in dhyāna,
Vitarka and vicāra are a torment.
That is why, avoiding vitarka and vicāra,
He succeeds in entering the sphere of unified consciousness

As a result of his inner purity (adhyātmasaṃprasāda),
He finds joy (prīti) and happiness (dukha) in absorption.
Penetrating into the second dhyāna,
His joy is lively and his mind is very happy.

An absorption where concentration is very strong
Is calm and free of smṛti (memory).
Annoyed by prīti (joy), the ascetic wants to get rid of it
In the same way that he has already eliminated vitarka and vicāra.

It is because of feeling (vedanā) that there is joy.
If joy is lost, sadness is experienced.
Renouncing pleasant bodily feeling (sukhavedanā),
The ascetic abandons memory and methods.

The saint (ārya) is able to reach this renunciation;
For other people, this renunciation is difficult.
When one knows the torments of happiness (sukha),
One sees the grand immobile peace.

When daurmanasya (sadness) and prīti (joy) are eliminated,
Duhkha (suffering) and sukha (happiness) still remain to be cut,
Purified by equanimity and reflection (upakṣasmṛtipariśuddha),
The mind penetrates into the fourth dhyāna.

The sukha present in the third dhyāna,
Transitory (anitya) and changing, is suffering.
In kāmadhātu, the ascetic has cut the daurmanasya;
In the second dhyāna he has eliminated the prīti.

This is why the Buddha Bhagavat
Said, in the fourth dhyāna,
Having cut the daurmanasya and the prīti,
It is necessary now to cut duḥkha and sukha.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25420.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

A bit more from the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra
‘Desires’ (kāma) are the five sense objects (pañca kāmaguṇa), colors (rūpa), etc., to which one becomes attached. By means of reflection and analysis, these desires are condemned, as has been said above.

The ‘wicked bad dharmas’ (pāpaka, akuśaladharma) are the five obstructions (pañca nīvaraṇa), greed (kāmacchanda), etc. By becoming detached from these two categories, of which the one is external (bāhya) and the other internal (ādhyātmika), the first dhyāna is acquired.

The [five] characteristics of the first dhyāna are: examination (vitarka), judgment (vicāra), joy (prīti), happiness (sukha) and one-pointedness of the mind (cittaikāgrata).[2]

It is ‘savitarka and savicāra’: by acquiring the good dharmas (kuśaladharma) and the qualities (guṇa) not previously acquired, in the first dhyāna the mind experiences great fear. When [a person] who has ceaselessly been burned by the fires of desire attains the first dhyāna, it is as if he were entering a pool of cold water. Or else he is like a poor man (daridra) who suddenly finds a treasure: the ascetic, who has meditated and analyzed the disadvantages of kāmadhātu and who sees the importance of the benefits and qualities of the first dhyāna, feels great joy (prīti): this is why it is called savitarka and savicāra.

Question. – Are vitarka and vicāra one and the same thing or are they two different things?

Answer. – They are two different things.[3] Vitarka is the first moment of a coarse mind (sthūlaprathamakṣaṇa), vicāra is a more subtle (sūkṣma) analysis. Thus, when a bell is struck, the first sound is strong, the subsequent sound is weaker; this is vicāra.

Question. – In the Abhidharma it is said that, from kāmadhātu until the first dhyāna, s single mind is associated with vitarka and vicāra; why do you say that vitarka is the first moment of a coarse mind whereas vicāra is a more subtle analysis?

Answer. – Although the two things reside in the same mind, their characteristics re not simultaneous: at the moment of vitarka, the vicāra is blurred (apaṭu); at the moment of vicāra, the vitarka is blurred. Thus, when the sun rises, the shadows disappear. All the minds (citta) and all the mental events (caitasaikadharma) receive their name prorata with time: [vitarka and vicāra are distinct names of one single mind]. Thus the Buddha said: “If you cut one single thing, I claim that you will become an anāgamin; this single thing is avarice (mātsarya).”[4] Really, it should be said that the five fetters of lower rank (avaraṃbhāgīya saṃyojana) must disappear in order that one may become anāgāmin.[5] Why did he say that it is necessary to cut just one single thing? Because avarice abounded in his questioner and the other fetters came from that; therefore it sufficed for that person to destroy avarice in order to cut through the other fetters at the same time. Similarly here, vitarka and vicāra take their name prorata from time.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25422.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma, as presented in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā-śāstra, also equates vitakka-vicāra with saṅkappa but it does so in terms of "reflection and enquiry".
2. [The second member], right thought (samyaksaṃkalpa), is, at the time of contemplating the four truths (satyānupaśyanā), associated with a pure mind (anāsravacittasaṃprayukyta): it is a reflection (tarka), an enquiry (vitarka), an understanding (avabodha), an examination (mīmāṃsa).
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25577.html

In the suttas at least, saṅkappa is more to do with intentions and plans.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Vivekananda
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by Vivekananda »

Dear contributors,
I appreaciate you efforts, dealing with this subject was a good exercise.

I was a little busy the last weeks, so the meditation was not as deep as before. Consequently these heretical scholars caused some wavering. But luckily last week, with the help of the forest, things became calmer again.

I will take you on a little chronological jounery, working through the texts shared by nirodh27:

Starting with that Polak paper but did not study it fully, the parts i did, were enough to create a feeling of suspicion. The whole thing about wrong Yogic practices, polarize. Coupled with his polemics (which are far less apparent in the next two papers) it appears to me that he is working for the hidden hand of Māra, but i am getting of track.
It may be therefore the case,that this sutta is directed against all the contemplative practices leading to altered states of consciousness, including the four jhānas. 
P.47, "REEXAMINING JHĀNA: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology" by Grzegorz Polak

Funnily enough this passage it so at odds with what is to be done,viz. correctly altering the consciousness up to the point of no more grasping!
But that's a typical scholarly trap, taking breath retention as representative of (mindaltering) yogic practices and equating it with the practice of uplifting, refining the citta, aka Jhāna .

That the Buddha leads us to the highest state does not mean, that other teachings are wrong, or unsuitable for the goal.
Especially bodily excercises are wonderful to curb gross defilements making that body flexible, more suitable to become calm.

But i do not want to critizies only, Stuart-Fox's analysis, was excellent, i was not aware of the facts he elaborated.

Next with the Bucknell paper came a big disturbance, the fact that "kāyena sukhañca patisamvedhi" is present in the third Jhāna formular.
The only solution i can think of is as a means to contrast against the fourth Jhāna were only Upekhā is present.

Nevertheless the conclusion Bucknell is drawing, again scholar-like, is feeble and thus not providing a strong support for the subsequent claim.
All accounts of the Jhāna agree in stating that the Jhāna factor piti is present inJhānas 1 and 2, but ceases with the attainment of Jhāna 3. If piti is correctly identified with the goose-flesh and similar reactions, then the ceasing of those reactions in the course of meditation should correspond to the transition from Jhāna 2 to Jhāna 3. In considering such apparent correspondences, one has to be prepared to put aside long-held notions about the nature of the Jhāna.
p.394, "Reinterpreting the Jhānas, by Roderick S. Bucknell Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies, Vol. 16, No. 2, Winter 1993 "

These experience he relates to are akin to sunday afternoon meditations, or rather first time meditations retreats nothing substantial, and certainly not freee from vitakka and vicāra (after Jhāna 2)...
Here fits well to mention this description, excelent exactly what's happening, how to do :
http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm
So now I have given you the instructions for the first jhana. It's a little bit foolish for me to be giving it on the first day of the retreat, because you're not likely to get there anytime soon. You're going to sit down and start rearranging the contents of your refrigerator, or something equally absurd. That's normal.
Made my day.

Finally the Āgamas, here i am crawling back to our beloved Abhidhamma, for which, after the process above i have to add value again!
Introducing the fifth, aka the upacāra samādhi, now seems totally legit to me. (Worth to mention Bhante Anālayo's gem Dawn of the Abhidharma.)
For corretly adjusting vitakka/vicāra are neccessary, yet for progressing, they should be consindered as done in the gong simile.

Vicaratha the following, the Jhāna formular is about going successively deeper and deeper, a guideline to progress through the whole formular.

Basically I am back at the beginning.
:woohoo:
..but see the first Jhāna a little broader now.

Best wishes from the forest near Mawlamyine.
Abroisa, alchemical gold, the true philosopher's stone!
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nirodh27
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Re: Why vitakka might mean thinking in jhana

Post by nirodh27 »

I'm not sure that I've understood the passages of your recent journey, but it is certainly bad to meditate with doubt and disturbance! Hope that this "trip" will in some way reinforce your journey to dispassion! Good luck!
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