Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Coëmgenu »

How many more profiles is this guy gonna get?

:jawdrop: :spy:
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by SJohann »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:12 am How many more profiles is this guy gonna get?

:jawdrop: :spy:
Wanna have them killed, those not serving wrong view?

Good to ask oneself "how many chances and goodness will I receive further to gain right view", and there are those who do no more take on avatars.

May one be aware of suggestions of abortions. It's possible for ordinary people to abort, kill even Arahats. Freedom of choice, yet no right, no excuse, even if blind.

Btw.: many think that human age is about 80+ but actually it's at the level of 30-40 years and soon down to ten.

What does one think: people, claiming rights, usual to kill what takes birth in their yoni, womb, forum, wouln"t they support killing of fetus as well?
Last edited by SJohann on Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Coëmgenu »

SJohann wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:29 amWanna have them killed, those not serving wrong view?
That's far too much mental illness for me in the morning.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by SJohann »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:56 pm
SJohann wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:29 amWanna have them killed, those not serving wrong view?
That's far too much mental illness for me in the morning.
So suicide after suggesting a kill? (Vipaka of killing, like all, may arise right after, or next wake up, or in later wake ups)

Seeing mental ill in mental heal, or mental heal in mental ill: common, but not the path, not liberal.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm not inclined to speak to you at present, because I don't see myself as able to not merely reinforce your delusions more. Anything I say you'll take as proof of some weird conspiracy.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by SJohann »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:23 pm I'm not inclined to speak to you at present, because I don't see myself as able to not merely reinforce your delusions more.
What ever one, neither Sekha nor Asekha talks, are always self-talk, talking with/for oneself, good wanderer.

So it then comes along, the "mirror":
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:23 pm Anything I say you'll take as proof of some weird conspiracy.
What does he think? For sure?

Therefore, to be secure: Sila (at least to do not fall out). One can not easy trust own ideas, could one?

Verbal kamma of approve of kills work that way. Thoughts go fast out.
Last edited by SJohann on Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Coëmgenu »

:alien:

Whether not for one other another, neither killed nor alive, are forever not it, not eternally neither, says Atma.

:alien: :alien: :alien:
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by SJohann »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:32 pm :alien:

Whether not for one other another, neither killed nor alive, are forever not it, not eternally neither, says Atma.

:alien: :alien: :alien:
Atma (my person) would say that most of missdeeds by "Buddhist" are done by the ideas of "nobody will have to bear it out".
Atta is very important on the path. It's the first governing principle, good wanderer.

A foolish baby boy (fetus), without notion of self isn't an Arahat. Yet both, if killing, or approve, serves a defeated.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Radix »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:37 amSo, if the bhikkhu under consideration expresses himself -- in the way you quoted him -- with the intention of killing a human being that he indeed perceives to be such, he would fall under Pārājika No. 3 if the abortion is carried out.
How would it become known if the abortion was carried out, and specifically at the advice of the monk?

The scenario where a woman returns after having had an abortion and tells the monk's superiors that she did it upon that monk's advice just doesn't seem likely. Also, she would somehow have to back up her claim (provided anyone would actually listen to her after she admitted to having had an abortion) by providing evidence of the conversation with the monk.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by SJohann »

Whether investigated (after concern in regard of ones actions) or not. A killer, caught or not, remains a killer. Even if he does not prove his subject's death later. And even living with the concern that it could have worked out defeating would hinder a prosperity.

If one votes "approve of kill" and encourages other in doing likewise, yet even using the Gems reputation for such, aside of Sg 13 (doing woman and outsider favors in regard of their desires and identification for a living), it's hardly that one could escape as co-perpetrator. Recorded speech, signs, work that impact-full.

Yet, different to common laws, nobody could force one to resign, nor to serve as "truth".

But in considering lack of shame and wrong view all around, in regard the edge of the other three as well, and not the slightest efforts toward a good and removing traps, don't leave much hope.

Sure, in most cases they work hard on it that a thief wouldn't be called thief, a killer not killer by Kings... maybe thats a try to get ride of the burdens with Vinaya.

It's like those on "don't pay (show signs of) respect/veneration toward laypeople", argue that isn't merely an image..., "I had no intention to do so, and continue to do unintended".

Of course there are some exception which might be accurate within minor fault, such as stupidy or crazy... as for pc3 there aren't such.

(Doubter: "I wan't to kill. I want to get ride of it." Answerer: "No problem. You have the right. And it's even not killing.")
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

Radix wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:58 pm How would it become known if the abortion was carried out, and specifically at the advice of the monk? The scenario where a woman returns after having had an abortion and tells the monk's superiors that she did it upon that monk's advice just doesn't seem likely. Also, she would somehow have to back up her claim (provided anyone would actually listen to her after she admitted to having had an abortion) by providing evidence of the conversation with the monk.
If one has exceedingly corrupt monastics, these considerations would surely play a role. If such monastics, not anymore considered bhikkhus or bhikkhunīs actually, try to remain in the saṅgha, they will likely succeed in such instances, even if by simply denying that they had intentions of causing death. If it just stands word against word, they cannot be pinned down; they must acknowledge, as far as I can see. From time to time it happens that monastics act out of ignorance of the precise factors at play for the pārājikas, and when they later find out and are concerned about their own purity, they lay all the facts open and then disrobe or downgrade to the state of sāmaṇera if need be.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Johann »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:07 am
Radix wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:58 pm How would it become known if the abortion was carried out, and specifically at the advice of the monk? The scenario where a woman returns after having had an abortion and tells the monk's superiors that she did it upon that monk's advice just doesn't seem likely. Also, she would somehow have to back up her claim (provided anyone would actually listen to her after she admitted to having had an abortion) by providing evidence of the conversation with the monk.
If one has exceedingly corrupt monastics, these considerations would surely play a role. If such monastics, not anymore considered bhikkhus or bhikkhunīs actually, try to remain in the saṅgha, they will likely succeed in such instances, even if by simply denying that they had intentions of causing death. If it just stands word against word, they cannot be pinned down; they must acknowledge, as far as I can see. From time to time it happens that monastics act out of ignorance of the precise factors at play for the pārājikas, and when they later find out and are concerned about their own purity, they lay all the facts open and then disrobe or downgrade to the state of sāmaṇera if need be.
It would apply also for cases of "no transgression". Some take not given copies or accounts... steal writings (from lay people, Sanghas, monks) and put them in public domains...

As well as they give signs of Venerations toward lay people "without intention". Who should, could tame them and become objects of increasing faith?

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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Johann »

And my person does not really see an allowed way to "downgrade" to Samanera, go forth as Samanera, marked with the signs of a thief, or killer, or betrayer, or one not dear to go after sex when in robes, as perse.

In any case, leaving gray areas, just increases non-monks in robes and decay of faith. Enough deprived from the Gems for worldily sake, gain, fame, called "compassion".
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by TRobinson465 »

ed.2004 wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:24 pm
And the rule in question is:
"killing a human or speaking praise of death resulting in death such as praising abortion or euthanasia"

I read this on an other forum, from a monk, who seemingly supports abortion:
"I think it is reasonable to be pro-choice, even if you think abortion is unethical as a matter of personal morality."

Does this, saying so, crosses the line "commits any of these four rules to the slightest degree"?
I think its a good idea for monks to simply not speak their mind about political issues, especially when it comes to things like supporting abortion or the death penalty for exactly this reason. It does run the risk of a parajika offense and you just wasted an exceedingly rare oppurtunity to spend your life as part of triple gem

That said, I think its important to look at the origin story to understand the spirit of the teaching and not just the text.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ipt=latin

It appears the Lord Buddha made the rule after some monks intentionally praised death as a way to incite someone to kill himself. Since it has to be intentional that their words result in the killing of another human being, i would argue simply saying you think its reasonable to be pro-choice probably doesnt count in the same way saying its reasonable to have a death penalty probably doesnt count as a parajika either (unless you are saying this to directly lawmaker or something like that). What would definitely count is advising someone to get an abortion of course, or giving some kind of advice that would cause someone to get an abortion and you intended for them to.

But eitherway, like i said, i think its better monks simply not say anything about it since its kinda a grey area.
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a monk who supports abortion is not a monk even if he still wears monk's robes?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

Johann wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:42 am And my person does not really see an allowed way to "downgrade" to Samanera, go forth as Samanera, marked with the signs of a thief, or killer, or betrayer, or one not dear to go after sex when in robes, as perse.
I am not aware of any prohibition for continuing as a sāmaṇera (neither canonical nor commentarial) for monastics who have fallen due to having committed a pārājika. It is also allowable according to many modern-day monastic communities. The commentaries explicitly say so and even explain that they can attain arahantship. I personally see no substaintial reason to doubt this explanation of the wise commentarial teachers (aṭṭhakathācariyā), but I am open to counterarguments from the canon and its commentarial literature.
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