Ajahn Buddhadasa

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Ceisiwr
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Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Ceisiwr »

I was skimming through Ajahn Amaro's book "Catastrophe/Apostrophe: The Buddha’s Teachings on Dependent Origination/Cessation" the other day when I came across something interesting regarding Ajahn Buddhadasa
In 1988 I had a chance to meet Ajahn Buddhadāsa; a Western monk who was travelling with me was very concerned about Ajahn Buddhadāsa’s rigorous emphasis on the ‘momentary’ interpretation and dismissal of the ‘three lives’ one, because that Western monk had strong perceptions about past lives and future lives. These seemed extremely real and common sense to him, as well as being mentioned very regularly in the canonical teachings. It was upsetting and confusing to him that Ajahn Buddhadāsa, in his writings and his talks, seemed to be saying that the idea of past lives and future lives was wrong or bad. When this monk asked him about this very point I was quite touched by Ajahn Buddhadāsa’s response. He could discern the sincerity of this enquirer and he was thus very sensitive and respectful towards him. He said, ‘Yes, of course those references are in the Suttas, and I don’t deny that they are valid, but in Thailand blind belief and superstition, self-view around past and future lives, is so strong that I have felt it my duty to emphasize things in the way that I have, because the current is so powerful in the other direction.’
https://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/up ... po-Web.pdf

It reminded me of his book "Me & Mine", where Ajahn Buddhadasa said that dependent origination carries on even after physical death (screenshot below). I think there is a tendency to misunderstand the Venerable in the west. Ajahn Buddhadasa seems to have wanted to stress emptiness, because in the context of the time most people were concerned with a better birth rather than ending it. His western followers take this then as a denial of rebirth, or if not that then one of making it irrelevant. It seems Bhante was more nuanced than that.
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“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by mjaviem »

I think it's wrong to believe that when people die that's it, no afterlife. It's also wrong to believe there's no self. At least for all us simple mortals these beliefs are wrong understanding. What we should open our minds to is to understand that death and birth is not only the physical, usual understanding. It's not only that. There are other moments when we lose the acquisitions that define us and get another set afterwards.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks for the quote from Ajahn Amaro Ceisiwr. Certainly, many teachers have much more nuanced views than how they are often portrayed.

:heart:
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robertk
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by robertk »

There is a discussion about one of Buddhadasa's books here:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/buddha ... pada/165/7
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Dan74
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Dan74 »

Interesting OP, thanks, ceisiwr.
_/|\_
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nirodh27
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by nirodh27 »

I'll respond here to a quote from Ceisiwr elsewhere since he directed me there.

The misunderstanding of Buddhadasa could very well be of westerns, but of ones like Ajahn Amaro in particular.

The only other possibility is that translators like Santikaro (that have translated and curated almost all his english books) and the translator of the italian version of "I and mine" changed the meaning of Buddhadasa's word with their understanding, I feel that is unlikely. Or that Buddhadasa changed idea in his life. Or that there were two Buddhadasa out there.

Buddhadasa was cristal clear that the only way in which the normal/literal understanding of rebirth "found in Dhamma books" is valuable only because of morality: "Let children and those with little knowledge believe in it".

And about physical birth: "That is not the problem. Suffering does not happen because of physical birth".

If one reads "Under the Body tree" by Buddhadasa, pages 60-65 that I've just reviewed it is, I mantain, impossible to get a different understanding and with that understanding in mind it is clear what Buddhadasa is saying in "I and Mine". But focus first on "Under the Body Tree" that is a book about PS and the idea of literal rebirth is treated in depth.

Yes, he will not deny it, because of the fact that it is ouside of our domain and it preserves morality. Don't take my words for it: read the pages.

If I will find some way to share those pages, I'll do tomorrow. I'll add even more when I'll get access to my notes, I've also some references about youtube videos of Dhamma talks that are even more clear. It's not westernes that have misunderstood Buddhadasa, it is, at best, Buddhadasa that made all the possible effort in the world to be misunderstood in his books.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:15 pm
If I will find some way to share those pages, I'll do tomorrow. I'll add even more when I'll get access to my notes, I've also some references about youtube videos of Dhamma talks that are even more clear. It's not westernes that have misunderstood Buddhadasa, it is, at best, Buddhadasa that made all the possible effort in the world to be misunderstood in his books.
In my experience when westerners read “Anatta and Rebirth”, for example, they read it as a denial of dependent origination occurring across lives. That isn’t what Bhante was saying at all there. He was saying there is no “I” which gets reborn, which is just the traditional view but with more emphasis. Ajahn Amaro’s account, which we have little reason to doubt, supports that reading. Even more so the passages from “Me and Mine”.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:23 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:15 pm
If I will find some way to share those pages, I'll do tomorrow. I'll add even more when I'll get access to my notes, I've also some references about youtube videos of Dhamma talks that are even more clear. It's not westernes that have misunderstood Buddhadasa, it is, at best, Buddhadasa that made all the possible effort in the world to be misunderstood in his books.
In my experience when westerners read “Anatta and Rebirth”, for example, they read it as a denial of dependent origination occurring across lives. That isn’t what Bhante was saying at all there. He was saying there is no “I” which gets reborn, which is just the traditional view but with more emphasis. Ajahn Amaro’s account, which we have little reason to doubt, supports that reading. Even more so the passages from “Me and Mine”.
Buddhadasa will never do a denial of that and the reason is spelled out in Under the Body tree, but it is seen as irrelevant or teaching for children and people without wisdom. Can you please read those pages "Under the Body tree"? It is pointless to disagree before. When you will have read that, we can take a look at Me and Mine in a new light. But if we don't agree on the meaning and significance of those little pages, it will be a waste of time for both of us.

Reading the phrase of Amaro in context, it seems more like a teaching about being respectful of the literalist view for those monks that are highly concerned about it. Amaro is very subtle in giving his opinion and it is well aware of what Buddhadasa (or Sumedho) thinks about rebirth, I've seen him also change completely attitude in question times. But again, this is pointless until you don't read what I've suggested.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:23 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:15 pm
If I will find some way to share those pages, I'll do tomorrow. I'll add even more when I'll get access to my notes, I've also some references about youtube videos of Dhamma talks that are even more clear. It's not westernes that have misunderstood Buddhadasa, it is, at best, Buddhadasa that made all the possible effort in the world to be misunderstood in his books.
In my experience when westerners read “Anatta and Rebirth”, for example, they read it as a denial of dependent origination occurring across lives. That isn’t what Bhante was saying at all there. He was saying there is no “I” which gets reborn, which is just the traditional view but with more emphasis. Ajahn Amaro’s account, which we have little reason to doubt, supports that reading. Even more so the passages from “Me and Mine”.
Buddhadasa will never do a denial of that and the reason is spelled out in Under the Body tree. Can you please read those pages "Under the Body tree"? It is pointless to disagree before. When you will have read that, we can take a look at Me and Mine in a new light. But if we don't agree on the meaning and significance of those little pages, it will be a waste of time for both of us.

Reading the phrase of Amaro in context, it seems more like a teaching about being respectful of the literalist view for those monks that are highly concerned about it. Amaro is very subtle in giving his opinion and it is well aware of what Buddhadasa (or Sumedho) thinks about rebirth, I've seen him also change completely attitude in question times. But again, this is pointless until you don't read what I've suggested.
I've read many of Venerable Buddhadasa's books, including "Under the Bodhi Tree" (it's still on my shelf). I've probably read it more times than I can count. Remember, I used to be you 12 years ago. It's clear that Bhante was a product of his time. When people were focusing on merit making, he wanted to shift the emphasis to emptiness. That of course doesn't mean he didn't think that, when dead, dependent origination stops. Based on the above, he thought it would continue. He didn't teach that though, as he wanted to emphasise the here and now. Thai Forest Monks tend to be more nuanced than a simple reading allows. Didn't you argue that to me once, regarding Ajahn Sumedho and his use of "permanent unconditioned awareness"?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by nirodh27 »

Ok, I've did my best! If it is on your shelf, go and read it
BrokenBones
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:44 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:23 pm

... Remember, I used to be you 12 years ago...
Nirodh27, is this true? Are you breaking TOS by having two accounts?
Ceisiwr & Nirodh27... who'd have thunk it.

This needs investigating.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:52 pm Ok, I've did my best! If it is on your shelf, go and read it
Well, not really. You once again directed me to "go educate yourself", this time on something I'm perfectly knowledgeable about. Ajahn Buddhadasa argued that questions about what is reborn, what is it's kammic inheritance and so on are meaningless questions because the person asking them can't know if they are true or not. He also said that once you understand emptiness, you understand that there is no one to be reborn because the self never existed (a view you disagree with). This is no different to the traditional view, it's just with more emphasis. It's what we find the Buddha doing too
Someone who, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, understands how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds might ask me a question about the future, or I might ask them a question about the future. And they might satisfy me with their answer, or I might satisfy them with my answer.

Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past and the future. I shall teach you the Dhamma: ‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.’”

“Well sir, I can’t even recall with features and details what I’ve undergone in this incarnation. How should I possibly recollect my many kinds of past lives with features and details, like the Buddha? For I can’t even see a mud-goblin right now. How should I possibly, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, see sentient beings passing away and being reborn, like the Buddha? But then the Buddha told me, ‘Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past and the future. I shall teach you the Dhamma:

“When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.”’ But that is even more unclear to me. Perhaps I might satisfy the Buddha by answering a question about my own tradition.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato ... ript=latin
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:07 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:52 pm Ok, I've did my best! If it is on your shelf, go and read it
Well, not really. You once again directed me to "go educate yourself", this time on something I'm perfectly knowledgeable about. Ajahn Buddhadasa argued that questions about what is reborn, what is it's kammic inheritance and so on are meaningless questions because the person asking them can't know if they are true or not. He also said that once you understand emptiness, you understand that there is no one to be reborn because the self never existed (a view you disagree with). This is no different to the traditional view, it's just with more emphasis. It's what we find the Buddha doing too
Someone who, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, understands how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds might ask me a question about the future, or I might ask them a question about the future. And they might satisfy me with their answer, or I might satisfy them with my answer.

Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past and the future. I shall teach you the Dhamma: ‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.’”

“Well sir, I can’t even recall with features and details what I’ve undergone in this incarnation. How should I possibly recollect my many kinds of past lives with features and details, like the Buddha? For I can’t even see a mud-goblin right now. How should I possibly, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, see sentient beings passing away and being reborn, like the Buddha? But then the Buddha told me, ‘Nevertheless, Udāyī, leave aside the past and the future. I shall teach you the Dhamma:

“When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises. When this doesn’t exist, that is not; due to the cessation of this, that ceases.”’ But that is even more unclear to me. Perhaps I might satisfy the Buddha by answering a question about my own tradition.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato ... ript=latin
I've asked to read the pages (you did? What I'm reading here is your understanding of those pages?) Because to have a proper discussion those pages are needed. Remember that you bringed me in this discussion because you said that "westerners" misunderstands Buddhadasa. My point is that the problem is that Westerners read Buddhadasa and they read what they read in those pages. If you want to re-read Buddhadasa with a single page that I don't think it says what you think you say and a phrase of Amaro that's fine, I maintain that those pages simply makes your reading not tenable. If you don't read those pages, how we could discuss?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:20 pm

I've asked to read the pages (you did? What I'm reading here is your understanding of those pages?) Because to have a proper discussion those pages are needed. Remember that you bringed me in this discussion because you said that "westerners" misunderstands Buddhadasa. My point is that the problem is that Westerners read Buddhadasa and they read what they read in those pages. If you want to re-read Buddhadasa with a single page that I don't think it says what you think you say and a phrase of Amaro that's fine, I maintain that those pages simply makes your reading not tenable. If you don't read those pages, how we could discuss?
I did say I have read the work, many times. The ball is in your court. It's not for me to substantiate your argument.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Ajahn Buddhadasa

Post by mjaviem »

I remember used DooDoot saying that ajahn Buddhadasa was wrong about going beyong good and bad. I think this is an example of westerners misunderstanding the venerable. I think the venerable was talking about good (for me) and bad (for me) instead.
Last edited by mjaviem on Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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