How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Pulsar
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Pulsar »

Noble Sangha wrote
Can anyone please explain to me how by practicing anapanasati as "focusing" on breathing in and out fulfill satipattana?
The shortest answer is "Read the agama parallels to Pali Satipatthana Samyutta" It will not have several Vedic intrusions found in the Pali version.
This clears up a lot of unnecessary stuff that tend to obscure real Satipatthana as Buddha taught it. I found the intro sutta to Agama section most helpful. I can translate it for you.
If you have no time for the above, the shortest answer I can give you is, Use the in-breath and out-breath as an axe to chop up the worldly thoughts that enter your mind. When no worldly thoughts enter your mind,
  • Rupa disappears, when Rupa vanishes Nama vanishes.
Let your in-breath and out-breath be the gatekeepers.
  • When nama-rupa vanishes from your thoughts no new consciousness is generated
hence generation of suffering ceases.

There I have answered OP's question too. How the practice of anapanasati relate to destruction of paticca-samuppada. It clips the most important link in the Origination of Suffering.
With love :candle:
Jack19990101
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Mudita.

Probably merely my assumption, but it is a safe assumption derived from common secular teaching regarding mindful of breathing.
Anapanasati is about mindful of one's breathing.

imo - that is not so.
What is the sati about?
Sati is upon body, vedana, citta & dhamma. Breath is not the sati is about.

Thus regarding to discussion: it is about lips, nose, or belly - it is not significant.
it is not what sati is about.

Breathing in the practice, is to keep the mind secluded. Thus sitting meditation is best suitable condition with anapanasati.

I am not all that into 'while driving, u can do Anapanasati.' - I think if you drive, u should not keep the mind secluded.
justindesilva
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by justindesilva »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:44 pm Mudita.

Probably merely my assumption, but it is a safe assumption derived from common secular teaching regarding mindful of breathing.
Anapanasati is about mindful of one's breathing.

imo - that is not so.
What is the sati about?
Sati is upon body, vedana, citta & dhamma. Breath is not the sati is about.

Thus regarding to discussion: it is about lips, nose, or belly - it is not significant.
it is not what sati is about.

Breathing in the practice, is to keep the mind secluded. Thus sitting meditation is best suitable condition with anapanasati.

I am not all that into 'while driving, u can do Anapanasati.' - I think if you drive, u should not keep the mind secluded.
Sati begins with manasikara or attention on an objectivity. With anapanasati the object or attention lyes with breathing snd the mind is glued to breath , inhaling and exhaling. Am I breathing fast or slow. With which nostril do I breath in and out. Heavy or softly. This way the mind is distracted from sight, sound, smell or taste. The mind attains one pointedness or a dyana enabling samadhi. Thoughts re other sensations driven out one can enter a jhana. Control of the mind like control of a wild buffalo follows.. This way mind can be controlled trough sati.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

[Part 1]

After some careful consideration, I believe it would be most beneficial for myself and others that I share a quick introduction to the journey that took me to Buddhism. Around age 18, a book opened up a rabbit hole for me. I took part in going down this rabbit hole. Made me want to escape it, but didn’t know how. I then thought of the “spiritual path” was the answer. But what does it mean to be spiritual since there can be countless answers? Different teachers, different teachings try to teach what “spiritual” is. So I tried, learned, BELIEVED many different things trying to figure out what being spiritual means. Some of my past beliefs were that there are soul, creator gods, and other distorted beliefs . . . Came across some distorted practices being shown as good but not pure in nature. After being competent in Buddhism, it helped me to see that some of my own past beliefs were indeed definitely distorted. What I mean by distorted is that it doesn’t lead to the ultimate goal of Nibbana and sometimes lead one further down the wrong path.

Reflecting back in my life, I never expected that I would end up the way I am today, I grew up "having a good time". One day, I thought that there was something wrong with the way we live in this rat race, something didn't seem "right" about just living to get a good job for financial security, living for weekends and vacations, having a family, retiring, and then die. I thought there was something wrong with this process, but couldn't understand why or what I was thinking and thought I was crazy for thinking like that. I also thought that I was once a king or emperor, had everything and now what am I doing here? Thought I was deluded for thinking like that.

Around early 2015, I came across Buddhism for the second time, the first time wasn’t for me or I wasn’t ready, but this time it was different. I felt there was some substance in the teachings, maybe what I was looking / searching for all my life. Later I found out that the first time that I came across Buddhism, it might have been Mahayana teachings. The second time ended up being Theravada the Thai Forest tradition. At that time, I really thought what I was learning was the path. From Canada, I travelled to California for about 3 weeks to visit Abhayagiri Monastery and Metta Forest monastery. Met some interesting and nice people. After leaving the monasteries, I continued to learn and practice what I was learning in Buddhism at that time. Such as Anicca as impermanence, anatta as no self, anapanasati as breath meditation.

Unexpectedly one day, while I was vacationing, a dhamma word came to my mind. I wanted to find out / learn more about it, so I did a search on google and it brought me to a website. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into at that time, but the teaching materials on the website resonated with me and forever changed the way I have understood and seen the Buddha Dhamma. The rest is history.

I mentioned these things because I hope others can see that I once have looked and tried out different things and teachings. Have had all sorts of distorted beliefs and views about this world. Learned and practiced the Theravada Buddhism that’s popular and most common today and one of these learning and practices was breath meditation as anapansati.

When I first started learning Buddhism, for over a year I learned and “tried” to practiced anapanasati the way it’s commonly known and taught these days, which is focusing on the breath and feeling the breath.

Now days, I understand Anapanasati as taking in DIRECTLY WITH MY MIND what’s the noble 8 fold path and discarding what’s not the noble 8 fold path. Another way to understand this, is initiating thoughts, speech and actions with alobha, adosa, amoha and discarding thoughts, speech and actions with lobha (raga), dosa, moha. Seeing this world as anicca, dukkha, anatta and seeing Nibbana as nicca, sukha, atta. There can be other ways to explain this as well.

Someone asked me "what is anapanasati then?" I’m going to borrow some material which I believe explains what anapanasati is and better than in my own words at this time.

(Start)

"Bad habits (gati/āsava) are associated with one or more immoral or unworthy acts, speech, or thoughts. We need to discard those.
To counter the bad habits, one needs to cultivate good habits. We need to improve moral behavior by engaging in ethical activities that bring joy to the heart.

AND we need to do this all the time. We cannot let bad habits come back, which means we need to look out for any lapses in our practice. And we need to be on the lookout for opportunities to do moral acts that are beneficial for oneself and others.
In a general sense, the Pāli word ānāpāna, “āna” includes anything that needs to “taken in” for the betterment of life, and “āpāna” the opposite. For example, we should eat only foods that are good for the body and stay away from or discard bad foods.

Nowadays, “āna” is taken to be “breathe in,” and “āpāna” is assumed to be “breathe out.” Now, “sati” means mindfulness, and thus, the word “ānāpānasati” is interpreted as “mindfully breathing in and mindfully breathing out.” That is the mundane (or “padaparama”) interpretation of “ānapāna.”

Buddha meant something deeper that would help cleanse the mind.
The Buddha described bhāvanā as follows: “āsevitāya, bhāvitāya, bahuleekathāya,...” or “keep close association, use often, and use all the time (what is good)……”. When one is making an effort to form a new habit, one should be thinking about it and doing things to support that whenever possible. Trying to do it in a formal meditation session will not be enough.

From the same material, it mentions the same conclusion that I came to "myself" and we're definitely not the only ones that have come to this same conclusion. The conclusion that I came to myself:

HOW CAN JUST A PROCESS OF “BREATHING IN” AND “BREATHING OUT” MINDFULLY GET RID OF EITHER THE BAD HABITS (gati/āsāvas) OR THE FIVE HIDRANCES?

OF COURSE, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

But it CAN do one thing, as we mentioned before. If we sit in a quiet place with the eyes closed (i.e., turn off the five physical senses in effect), AND fix the mind on the breath, we can get the five hindrances to settle down and not come up (assuming that we are staying away from committing the BIG EIGHT immoral acts).

However, this calming down or getting to Samatha is a TEMPORARY solution. The moment we come back to the real world with all its distractions and temptations, those habits take over.

(End)

Before answering the op's question of "how does fulfilling the steps of anapanasati relate to paticca samuppada?" An essential awareness and some general understanding of the other Paticca Samuppada cycles besides the Akusala-Mula P.S that's mentioned "IN THE TIPITAKA" or precisely the abhidhamma is needed. As far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, the akusala-mula P.S. cycle is "usually" the only P.S cycle that's being taught in Theravada Buddhism today. I believe the main reason for this is, today most Theravada books and teachings follow the Visuddhimagga instead of the Tipitaka. I just did a google search for "Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada". The link below is one of the very few that even mentions anything closely related to the Kusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/de ... tion/23947

What I was told: "Acāriya Buddhaghosa understood only one aspect (the akusala-mūla PS) of the numerous applications of PS:"

I also unexpectedly came across something that someone wrote in a book about Venerable Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga which I never knew about.

"Venerable Buddhaghosa acknowledged in his writing of the chapter of Paṭicca-samuppāda in the Visuddhimagga; he dared to give comments on Paṭiccasamuppāda with the help of the explanations by the ancient teachers. If relying only on his own ability, he would not have dared to expound on this doctrine. Just as one cannot dive to the bottom of a deep ocean without equipment, in the same way, Venerable Buddhaghosa could not comprehend the profundity of Paṭicca-samuppāda nor clarify this deep doctrine without the explanations of former commentators."

Later on the author goes on to mention something that puzzles me.

"Therefore, with the help of the Visuddhimagga, we can study and analyze Paticca Samuppada combined with Patthana.

I find it kinda weird? or interesting that the author of the book mentions that Venerable Buddhaghosa could not comprehend the profundity of P.S. without the help of former commentators or teachers, but then goes on to use some of the Visuddhimagga materials for the writing of their book?

I have never read the Visuddhimagga nor plan to, as I have seen enough through my own experience and observation that I believe I can make an informed decision about the Visuddhimagga. Of course I'm not saying there's no merit or nothing can be learnt from the Visuddhimagga.

Anyways back to the topic at hand . . .

This is to answer a DW member question "I think I don't. What are they?" (What are the other P.S. cycles) and to complete the OP's question "how does fulfilling the steps of anapanasati relate to paticca samuppada?"

In the mahanidanasutta (DN 15) Venerable Ananda remarked to the Buddha that Paticca Samuppada seem "plain and easy", but the Buddha quickly admonished him. Saying P.S. is indeed deep. What I know is that there are different P.S cycles, they can go backwards, multiple P.S cycles within one, and other ways. I don't know all the details nor do I spend much time contemplating on the P.S. cycles these days, I have before and will get back to it eventually.

Besides the Akusala-Mula P.S cycle that everyone is familiar with, another 2 P.S. cycles that others should be aware of and I believe that will help them to fill in some gaps of understanding of the Buddha Dhamma are the Kusala-Mula and Avyakata P.S cycles.

Akusala-Mula P.S. everyone is already familiar, starting with Avija pacca sankhara . . . and ends in soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upayasa, Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

From the paticcasamuppadavibhanga:

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms?lay ... ript=latin

2.10.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta

kusalamūlapaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā pasādo, pasādapaccayā adhimokkho, adhimokkhapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti.

Tattha katame kusalamūlā? Alobho, adoso, amoho.

Kusala-Mula P.S. describes the P.S. process that leads to Nibbana by one acting with alobha, adosa and amoha with an understanding of the four noble truths and other Buddha dhamma teachings. This P.S. cycle is unknown to the world without the Buddha's true teachings.

2.11. Abyākataniddesa

Katame dhammā abyākatā? Yasmiṁ samaye kāmāvacarassa kusalassa kammassa katattā upacitattā vipākaṁ cakkhuviññāṇaṁ uppannaṁ hoti upekkhāsahagataṁ rūpārammaṇaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

Avyakata P.S. is designated as neither Akusala or Kusala. Avyakata P.S. is karmically neutral or just kamma vipaka. From Avyakata P.S. or kamma vipaka, we initiate new kamma usually through the Akusala-Mula P.S and under the right conditions, the kusala-mula P.S.

P.S. cycles can also be broken down into "Uppatti" P.S. which describes how we create our rebirths and "Idappaccayata" which describes kamma accumulation in real-time that leads to uppatti P.S.

The Kusala-Mula P.S. cycle is the most relevant to answer the OP question. As one can see, these cycles can be found in the Abhidhamma PaticcaSamuppadaVibhanga. But to my biggest surprise which I never knew about this until I joined DW, is that there are people that actually believes the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's teachings. If those that believes the abhidhamma isn't Buddha dhamma and they saw what I just mentioned about the other P.S cycles, I'm sure one of their refutation would be "it's not the Buddha's teachings because it's from the Abhidhamma and since it's from the Abhidhamma, it's not the Buddha's teachings or in other words sectarian views" . . . :shrug:

Well . . . to those who believes the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's teachings and those that believes it is, you're all going to be in for a real treat down the road. With due time, findings will be presented and those that has faith and seen that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teachings, you'll see that you have made the right choice (if anyone has doubts). In fact, one doesn't even need other's evidence if they are able to see it for themselves that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha's teachings! Of course, I don't expect anyone to take these words seriously until they have seen for themselves the findings that backs up these words. Everything about the Dhamma would be so much easier and clear if the Buddha was alive now, but that's not the case.

We had to do some digging, but it was a very beneficial learning experience for me and well worth the effort. Hope these findings being presented in the future will help one to reconsider their views and be able to put "an end" to the debate whether or not the Abhidhamma is Buddha dhamma.

https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/s ... ript=latin

“Mendicants, there are two fools.
“Dveme, bhikkhave, bālā.

What two?
Katame dve?

One who doesn’t recognize when they’ve made a mistake. And one who doesn’t properly accept the confession of someone who’s made a mistake.
Yo ca accayaṁ accayato na passati, yo ca accayaṁ desentassa yathādhammaṁ nappaṭiggaṇhāti.

These are the two fools.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve bālāti.

There are two who are astute.
Dveme, bhikkhave, paṇḍitā.

What two?
Katame dve?
One who recognizes when they’ve made a mistake. And one who properly accepts the confession of someone who’s made a mistake.
Yo ca accayaṁ accayato passati, yo ca accayaṁ desentassa yathādhammaṁ paṭiggaṇhāti.

These are the two who are astute.”
Ime kho, bhikkhave, dve paṇḍitā”ti.

Goes on . . .

Mendicants, these two misrepresent the Realized One.
Dveme, bhikkhave, tathāgataṁ abbhācikkhanti

What two?
Katame dve?

One who explains what was not spoken by the Realized One as spoken by him. And one who explains what was spoken by the Realized One as not spoken by him.
Yo ca abhāsitaṁ alapitaṁ tathāgatena bhāsitaṁ lapitaṁ tathāgatenāti dīpeti, yo ca bhāsitaṁ lapitaṁ tathāgatena abhāsitaṁ alapitaṁ tathāgatenāti dīpeti.

Sorry for going off topic, but wanted to mentioned this "for a while" . . .
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

[Part 2]

Now to complete my answer to OP question "how does fulfilling the steps of anapanasati relate to Paticca Samuppada?".

One of the most important Pali words for me in the Paticcasamuppadavibhanga is "Lokuttara". To me there's no doubt that this word means transcendental and the path that takes one to Nibbana. Why I say this is because from the vibhanga 2.10.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta, (to me, it means P.S.) The initial ending part is like other P.S cycles such as the Akusala-Mula which everyone is familiar with, bhava, jati, jara, maranam, but there's no soka, parideva, dukkha, domanassa, upayasa. Instead it's "Evametesaṁ dhammānaṁ samudayo hoti"

Whereas "Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti" is almost in all of the other P.S. descriptions.

This leads me to believe that the 2.10.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta (P.S.) is what lead's one to Nibbana.

One way for me to understand what kusala means is taking in (ana) "initiating thoughts" of right view (samma ditthi) as much as possible so that it becomes as "YONISO MANSIKARA".

My understanding of samma ditthi is that it's the Tilakhana (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta), the four noble truths, Assada, adinava, nissarana, and other Dhamma teachings.

What are some of the ways to understand Samma ditthi? In the Sammaditthisutta (MN 9) it mentions them:

Sāriputta said this:Āyasmā sāriputto etadavoca:

“A noble disciple understands the unskillful and its root, and the skillful and its root.
“Yato kho, āvuso, ariyasāvako akusalañca pajānāti, akusalamūlañca pajānāti, kusalañca pajānāti, kusalamūlañca pajānāti—

The unskillful are the dasa akusala and it's root are lobha, dosa, moha. In the same sutta, it mentions what is skillful and it's roots. My understanding is that one of the ways to understand what is skillful (kusala) is nekkhamma, karuna, mudita and others. In the same sutta, the kusala roots are listed as the opposite of the dasa akusala's and it's roots are alobha, adosa, amoha. It also goes on to list understanding the 4 noble truths as sammaditthi and other dhamma teachings.

"To me" the way that I understand and practice anapanasati is by taking in what's the noble 8 fold path and discarding what's not. Taking in alobha, adosa, amoha thoughts, speech, actions. Discarding lobha, dosa, moha thoughts, speech and actions. Seeing the 5 aggregates as anicca, dukkha, anatta and seeing nibbana as nicca, sukha, atta and so on . . .

If one is taking in the noble 8 fold path, what's the very first step in the noble 8 fold path? It's sammaditthi or hopefully "lokuttara sammaditthi" and what were some of the teachings we received from Venerable Sariputta on what Samma ditthi is? One of them was the 4 Noble Truths. In case for those who haven't realized or seen this yet, but anicca, dukkha, anatta (Tilakkhana) is contained in the first 2 noble truths.

Now I'm going to do a comparison of two people practicing anapanasati in two different ways.

Person A) doesn't focus on the breath, but uses their mind directly to give rise to thoughts / ideas/ speech of "Samma ditthi".

Person B) Who focuses on breathing in and out and feeling it all and other practices . . . After being able to focus on their breathing and feelings, then they get to samma ditthi maybe? Or one believes that by focusing on the breath is sammaditthi?

As far as I can think off, practicing breathing meditation as anapanasati can possibly have 5 outcomes.

#1. Most common (my guess and experience) people usually struggle, especially at the initial stage of breath meditation practice either through formal meditation or practical application of everyday situations of being mindful of the breath. Some give up, but some find relieve from stress or are dedicated to the Buddhist path, so they continue the practice.

#2. Breath meditation to help one with "temporary" relieve of stress in life.

#3. Breathing meditation can lead to anariya jhana's.

#4. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, I haven't been learning from or following what most Theravada Buddhist Practitioners would be learning or practicing these days. As far as I remembered, I believe it's taught in todays Theravada doctrine that one "needs" jhana's or maybe jhana helps one to attain Nibbana or Magga phala. To be honest, when I was typing this, I was going agree that by doing breath meditation getting into anariya jhana's can help one to attain magga phala with the "correct" dhamma. But a realization / remembrance just came to mind is that one of the most important requirements to become Sotapanna (Steam enterer) is by "listening" from a teaching of an Ariya". Before typing this, my understanding has been that one doesn't need jhana's to attain magga phala, but now I don't "see" where jhana's are needed to attain magga phala. This is evidenced by the Abhidhamma teachings on Citta Vithi. The Citta Vithi for jhana's and magga phala are different. From what little I know about the Abhidhamma is that there's no Citta vithi's that goes through jhana's then to magga phala in the "same citta vithi". BUT one can attain magga phala through anariya jhana's based on 89 (121) types of citta's analysis. The conclusion that I have come to now is that one can attain magga phala with or without jhana's.

#5. I'll just leave it as "other".

Whatever the # outcome is, it's doesn't really matter for this discussion.

Now going back to the example of person A using his mind (citta's & cetasika) directly for anapanasati by taking in the noble 8 fold path starting with Samma ditthi leading by contemplating on the 4 noble truths or the tilakkhana. Person A cut's out the step of placing one's focus and attention on the breath and feelings through different parts of body. Person A believes by practicing anapanasati this way is even more practical in everyday situations than focusing on one's breath.

Person A feels they don't need to focus on the breath instead focus on contemplating on the Buddha dhamma (citta's & dhamma) directly with their mind whenever possible. By doing this person A becomes more sensitized to one's feelings (vedana) and thoughts (citta's & cetasika's) towards lobha, dosa, moha. Once aware both in thoughts (citta, cetasika's) and feelings (vedana) of lobha, dosa, moha, one is more likely to refrain from committing the dasa akusala in one's action (kaya), speech and thoughts. As well doing their best, person A initiates kusala thoughts, speech, actions whenever possible.

Person B, practices anapanasati as breath meditation. I'm sure I don't need to mention all the different ways of doing so since everyone is well versed in that . . .

Now completing the answer to OP question "how does fulfilling the steps of anapanasati relate to paticca samuppada?"

***When one "takes in" or thinks about kusala thoughts such as contemplating on the 4 noble truths or Tilakkhana or other dhamma teachings (WITH LOKUTTARA SAMMADITTHI), they can be said to be activating the Kusala-Mula P.S, the cycle that leads one to Nibbana. As one progress on the path, the person can be said to be fulfilling the Kusala-Mula P.S. cycle. The Kusala-mula P.S cycle is fulfilled when one attains Arahanthood.***

Can breathing meditation achieve the same results? One thing I will say is that breath meditation can possibly help one to get into anariya jhana's and maybe help one to attain magga phala. But my thinking is that . . .

A. Why do I need to or put time and effort in being aware of my breath and feeling it's feelings throughout my body when I can directly attain nibbana through my "mind, citta's, cetiska's"?

B. How practical is focusing on breathing in and out in everyday life situations?

I would love to hear some answers to questions A and B.

To conclude this post, I'll use the example of how I believe by typing this post, I'm using anapanasati to fulfill the steps of satipattana and the Kusala-Mula P.S cycle without needing breath meditation.

Just a side note, people can see a post where someone asked "Do you think that the 3 marks of existence can be unified with the N8FP? If so, how?"

What is mentioned there is an additional and another way of saying similar things that I have mentioned in this post.

The example that I'm about to use, whether one believes I'm practicing anapanasati through my example or not. It's not really my concern.

This is one example that I can think off . . . We'll use Person A from the above example for this one as well.

Person A would start the practice of anapanasati by contemplating (ana, taking in / import) on the 3 characteristics of this world anicca, dukkha, anatta and how we living beings suffer in this rebirth process. Person A starts to feel compassionate towards other living beings and hopes to help others through the Buddha dhamma. If or when person A notice any thoughts of lobha, dosa, moha, they would (pana discard / export) it out of my mind.

Since person A would like to share some of their experiences and understanding of the Buddha dhamma with others, but in order to accomplish this, they would need to use their mind and body. One of the ways to accomplish this intention is bring their body and mind in front of a computer and start typing.

Kayanupassana . . . I remembered when I first started learning Buddhism, one of the ways that I was taught how to practice kayanupassana was to keep in my mind focus on every single step of whatever I was doing. "I'm lifting my hand, pick up a glass of water, pour it down my throat, I'm breathing, I'm stepping left, I'm stepping right etc . . ." (Vedananupassana) as feeling the breath throughout the body, what kind of sensations arises and where. When the mind is calm then can get into piti and sukha. When the mind is calm with piti and sukha, then I can get into cittanupassana and dhammanupassana and so forth . . .

I asked the question in this thread “how does anapanasati as focusing breathing in and out fulfill satipatthana?”. The explanations given by other DW members was similar to what I was taught 7 years ago and what I just mentioned about kayanupassana. It seems like it's still commonly taught today.

Now days, I believe I'm practicing kayanupassana by simply doing my best to know and understand why and what am I using my body for. Is it for raga, dosa, moha or alobha, adosa, amoha?

Using our current example, person A understands and know why they should walk to a computer, sit in front of it, and start typing. They believe that their using their body (walking, sitting, typing, speech) for kusala and not for akusala, thereby fulfilling kayanupassana. As person A is typing or reading other's comments, they use (vedananupassana) feelings to help them to be aware if their thoughts and speech is either kusala, akusala or neutral. Person A uses (cittanupassana) doing their best to be mindful of what not to say, hoping to avoid unskillful thoughts and speech as much as possible. Or to say / mentioning of Buddha dhamma (dhammanupassana) teachings according to their understanding that can benefit people.

This is one of other examples that I can think of how one doesn't need to do breath meditation to practice the satipattana that's most commonly taught today.

Really . . . I only just realized this a few days ago. If one looks up the 4 supreme efforts (Cattārō Sammāppadhāna) and connect it with what I just mentioned about my understanding of anapanasati or the examples that I have given. It's literally the same thing . . . Cattārō Sammāppadhāna = anapanasati.

I hope this answers the OP question of "how does fulfilling the steps of anapanasati relate to paticca samuppada?" and another person's question "I think I don't. What are they?" (What are the other P.S. cycles)

After saying all this, please don't misunderstand that I'm saying don't practice or use breath meditation. I'm just here to share another view of what anapanasati is and present it to others for their own consideration . One is free to learn and practice as they like.

I will mention this though, I do believe there are some benefits to breath meditation as it can help one to get into anariya jhana's. The benefit of this is it can help one to stay mostly away from lobha, dosa, moha and possibly aid one in comprehending the Buddha dhamma. But like I mentioned before, one doesn't even need jhana's or cultivate jhana's to attain magga phala or Arahanthood.

Another benefit of breath meditation which I mostly use it for now days is to get rid of impurities or contaminates (NOT DEFILEMENTS FROM THE MIND) that comes to the surface of the body when one burns away or in the process of removing defilements (asava's/gati) due to greed, hate and ignorance defilements. With proper breathing techniques, I believe it can help with the cleansing process (not removing defilements from the mind), but by expelling out the contaminates that comes to the surface through one's out breath.

Still after mentioning these benefits, I only use breath meditation less than 10% of the time in my formal meditation practice and it's for the purpose of what was mentioned. Still my belief is that focusing on breathing is not anapanasati.

It's possible that I might have missed some benefits of breath meditation, but even after listing the benefits, I believe there are drawbacks to breath meditation that I'm not going to get into in this post.

To conclude, I can't / don't see / find any drawbacks where / when I can directly using my mind to accomplish the same things as breathing meditation and more . . .

:candle:
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Sorry, but the above is nothingburger. Basically the mind goes on and on (aka papanca).

Better practice 5 precepts and hear true dhamma in Sutta.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
RobertoAnces
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:19 am How does the practice of fulfilling the steps of anapanasati (breath meditation) relate to paticca-samuppada (Dependent origination)?

What are the good resources and discussions of this process?
This is my opinion:

If you read Ānāpānassatisutta sutta, Buddha is talking to ariya, so them all have already the right view, so them all have already an understanding of paticca-samuppada, in any case it would help in further understanding, but developing Dependent Origination knowlege is prior to anapanassati meditation, if you're not ariya maybe should start by the beginning:
“In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who are arahants with taints destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached their own goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

“In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the five lower fetters, are due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna, without ever returning from that world—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

“In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of three fetters and with the attenuation of lust, hate, and delusion, are once-returners, returning once to this world to make an end of suffering—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

“In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound for deliverance, headed for enlightenment—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.
Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training):
So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in the Eastern Monastery, the stilt longhouse of Migāra’s mother. Then the brahmin Moggallāna the Accountant went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

“Master Gotama, in this stilt longhouse we can see gradual progress down to the last step of the staircase. Among the brahmins we can see gradual progress in learning the chants. Among archers we can see gradual progress in archery. Among us accountants, who earn a living by accounting, we can see gradual progress in mathematics. For when we get an apprentice we first make them count: ‘One one, two twos, three threes, four fours, five fives, six sixes, seven sevens, eight eights, nine nines, ten tens.’ We even make them count up to a hundred. Is it possible to similarly describe a gradual training, gradual progress, and gradual practice in this teaching and training?”

“It is possible, brahmin. Suppose a deft horse trainer were to obtain a fine thoroughbred. First of all he’d make it get used to wearing the bit. In the same way, when the Realized One gets a person for training they first guide them like this: ‘Come, mendicant, be ethical and restrained in the monastic code, conducting yourself well and seeking alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, keep the rules you’ve undertaken.’

When they have ethical conduct, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, guard your sense doors. When you see a sight with your eyes, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of sight, and achieve restraint over it. When you hear a sound with your ears … When you smell an odor with your nose … When you taste a flavor with your tongue … When you feel a touch with your body … When you know a thought with your mind, don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of mind were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming. For this reason, practice restraint, protect the faculty of mind, and achieve its restraint.’

When they guard their sense doors, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, eat in moderation. Reflect properly on the food that you eat: ‘Not for fun, indulgence, adornment, or decoration, but only to sustain this body, to avoid harm, and to support spiritual practice. In this way, I shall put an end to old discomfort and not give rise to new discomfort, and I will live blamelessly and at ease.’

When they eat in moderation, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, be committed to wakefulness. Practice walking and sitting meditation by day, purifying your mind from obstacles. In the evening, continue to practice walking and sitting meditation. In the middle of the night, lie down in the lion’s posture—on the right side, placing one foot on top of the other—mindful and aware, and focused on the time of getting up. In the last part of the night, get up and continue to practice walking and sitting meditation, purifying your mind from obstacles.’

When they are committed to wakefulness, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, have mindfulness and situational awareness. Act with situational awareness when going out and coming back; when looking ahead and aside; when bending and extending the limbs; when bearing the outer robe, bowl and robes; when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting; when urinating and defecating; when walking, standing, sitting, sleeping, waking, speaking, and keeping silent.’

When they have mindfulness and situational awareness, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, frequent a secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw.’ And they do so.

After the meal, they return from almsround, sit down cross-legged with their body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Giving up desire for the world, they meditate with a heart rid of desire, cleansing the mind of desire. Giving up ill will and malevolence, they meditate with a mind rid of ill will, full of compassion for all living beings, cleansing the mind of ill will. Giving up dullness and drowsiness, they meditate with a mind rid of dullness and drowsiness, perceiving light, mindful and aware, cleansing the mind of dullness and drowsiness. Giving up restlessness and remorse, they meditate without restlessness, their mind peaceful inside, cleansing the mind of restlessness and remorse. Giving up doubt, they meditate having gone beyond doubt, not undecided about skillful qualities, cleansing the mind of doubt.

They give up these five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. Then, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, they enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.

That’s how I instruct the mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring to the supreme sanctuary. But for those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and are rightly freed through enlightenment—these things lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.”

When he had spoken, Moggallāna the Accountant said to the Buddha, “When his disciples are instructed and advised like this by Master Gotama, do all of them achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, or do some of them fail?”

“Some succeed, while others fail.”

“What is the cause, Master Gotama, what is the reason why, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and Master Gotama is present to encourage them, still some succeed while others fail?”

“Well then, brahmin, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, brahmin? Are you skilled in the road to Rājagaha?”

“Yes, I am.”

“What do you think, brahmin? Suppose a person was to come along who wanted to go to Rājagaha. He’d approach you and say: ‘Sir, I wish to go to Rājagaha. Please point out the road to Rājagaha.’ Then you’d say to them: ‘Here, mister, this road goes to Rājagaha. Go along it for a while, and you’ll see a certain village. Go along a while further, and you’ll see a certain town. Go along a while further and you’ll see Rājagaha with its delightful parks, woods, meadows, and lotus ponds.’ Instructed like this by you, they might still take the wrong road, heading west. But a second person might come with the same question and receive the same instructions. Instructed by you, they might safely arrive at Rājagaha. What is the cause, brahmin, what is the reason why, though Rājagaha is present, the path leading to Rājagaha is present, and you are there to encourage them, one person takes the wrong path and heads west, while another arrives safely at Rājagaha?”

“What can I do about that, Master Gotama? I am the one who shows the way.”

“In the same way, though extinguishment is present, the path leading to extinguishment is present, and I am present to encourage them, still some of my disciples, instructed and advised like this, achieve the ultimate goal, extinguishment, while some of them fail. What can I do about that, brahmin? The Realized One is the one who shows the way.”

When he had spoken, Moggallāna the Accountant said to the Buddha, “Master Gotama, there are those faithless people who went forth from the lay life to homelessness not out of faith but to earn a livelihood. They’re devious, deceitful, and sneaky. They’re restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, and loose-tongued. They do not guard their sense doors or eat in moderation, and they are not committed to wakefulness. They don’t care about the ascetic life, and don’t keenly respect the training. They’re indulgent and slack, leaders in backsliding, neglecting seclusion, lazy, and lacking energy. They’re unmindful, lacking situational awareness and immersion, with straying minds, witless and stupid. Master Gotama doesn’t live together with these.

But there are those gentlemen who went forth from the lay life to homelessness out of faith. They’re not devious, deceitful, and sneaky. They’re not restless, insolent, fickle, scurrilous, and loose-tongued. They guard their sense doors and eat in moderation, and they are committed to wakefulness. They care about the ascetic life, and keenly respect the training. They’re not indulgent or slack, nor are they leaders in backsliding, neglecting seclusion. They’re energetic and determined. They’re mindful, with situational awareness, immersion, and unified minds; wise, not stupid. Master Gotama does live together with these.

Of all kinds of fragrant root, spikenard is said to be the best. Of all kinds of fragrant heartwood, red sandalwood is said to be the best. Of all kinds of fragrant flower, jasmine is said to be the best. In the same way, Master Gotama’s advice is the best of contemporary teachings.

Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent! As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, Master Gotama has made the Teaching clear in many ways. I go for refuge to Master Gotama, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha. From this day forth, may Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”
It seems to me that the Buddha does not send the bhikkhus to meditate in a secluded place, under a tree... until they are ariya (they already have a very high knowledge of the dhamma and has the right view), their mindfulness is very developed and are already capable of entering the first jhanna (have surmounted the hindrances).

Anapannasati is still just another form of meditation, an ariya can enter the first jhana in any meditation he does or even without meditating. It doesn't matter if you observe your breathing, your body, your feelings, the dhammas (mind) ... It is just a meditation object on which to rest your attention when nothing else is happening in your mind, an anchor, some place to go back if you get distracted.

So if your already are an ariya and practice anapanassati you would enter and abide in the firt jhana, maybe later second jhana, third ... and how would that help with dependant origination??, well we have MN 111 one by one:
“Here, monks, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome phenomena, Sāriputta attains and remains in the first jhāna, which has thought and consideration, and has rapture and pleasure produced by seclusion. The phenomena which are present in the first jhāna – thought, consideration, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention4 – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.
As you see is just the same as in the sutta of gradual training, MN 107. In first jhana you have thinking and pondering, furthermor you can understand Dependant Originatión just by watching, whitout hindrances, with a fully developed mindfulness,(" In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind") you can see your mind (citta nimita) and understand how it works, you can develop wisdom (Dependent Origination knowledge).

I'm not very sure, but i believe that entering the second, third... jhana can help, but it's not necessary, in theory to get to arhatship you don't need a very detailed knowledge of Dependant Origination and you can get to arhat simply with the first jhana.

Sorry for my English, I've tried to write the better i can.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:19 am How does the practice of fulfilling the steps of anapanasati (breath meditation) relate to paticca-samuppada (Dependent origination)?

What are the good resources and discussions of this process?
It's about awareness without attachment IMO. As you build up awareness of the breath, you don't attach to it because it is anicca, unstable, and involuntary, but at the same time, you have full understanding of the breath, you're aware it's beginning, middle, end, and all of its attributes and intricate parts.

In Dependent Origination, you can have full awareness of each link in the chain, all of its intricate parts and attributes, its beginning, middle and end, and still be able to avoid building an attachment or upadana, which will break the link in the chain.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

RobertoAnces wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:48 pm
Sorry for my English, I've tried to write the better i can.
Trying and practicing helps and I hope you do :)
Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training):
I'm just wondering, from reading the Ganakamoggallanasutta sutta, what makes you think or which part of the sutta or what evidence that shows anapanassati is not for puthujjana's?
I'm just wondering, from reading the Ganakamoggallanasutta sutta, what makes you think or which part of the sutta or what evidence that shows anapanassati is not for puthujjana's?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
Dhammapardon
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm [Part 1]
[Part 2]
Hello Noble Sangha

Thank you once again for a very detailed post peppered with your actual experiences. I had a chance to go through it more thoroughly and have some feedback from my own understandings and experiences I'd like to share. Along with answering some of your questions within. Please understand what is said here, including critiques, is intended to enhance my, your, and others' understandings. I hope it finds you well and please feel free to dissect any wrong understandings within.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm "Now days, I understand Anapanasati as taking in DIRECTLY WITH MY MIND what’s the noble 8 fold path and discarding what’s not the noble 8 fold path. Another way to understand this, is initiating thoughts, speech and actions with alobha, adosa, amoha and discarding thoughts, speech and actions with lobha (raga), dosa, moha. Seeing this world as anicca, dukkha, anatta and seeing Nibbana as nicca, sukha, atta. There can be other ways to explain this as well"
Yes, until going through MN118 again recently, I was only vaguely beginning to understand how one explores with the breath. I have been doing it for the body quite readily but now see much more clearly how this applies to the right path for the other three of the four foundations of mindfulness.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm "Bad habits (gati/āsava) are associated with one or more immoral or unworthy acts, speech, or thoughts. We need to discard those.
To counter the bad habits, one needs to cultivate good habits. We need to improve moral behavior by engaging in ethical activities that bring joy to the heart.

AND we need to do this all the time. We cannot let bad habits come back, which means we need to look out for any lapses in our practice. And we need to be on the lookout for opportunities to do moral acts that are beneficial for oneself and others.
In a general sense, the Pāli word ānāpāna, “āna” includes anything that needs to “taken in” for the betterment of life, and “āpāna” the opposite. For example, we should eat only foods that are good for the body and stay away from or discard bad foods.

Nowadays, “āna” is taken to be “breathe in,” and “āpāna” is assumed to be “breathe out.” Now, “sati” means mindfulness, and thus, the word “ānāpānasati” is interpreted as “mindfully breathing in and mindfully breathing out.” That is the mundane (or “padaparama”) interpretation of “ānapāna.”

Buddha meant something deeper that would help cleanse the mind.
The Buddha described bhāvanā as follows: “āsevitāya, bhāvitāya, bahuleekathāya,...” or “keep close association, use often, and use all the time (what is good)……”. When one is making an effort to form a new habit, one should be thinking about it and doing things to support that whenever possible. Trying to do it in a formal meditation session will not be enough.

From the same material, it mentions the same conclusion that I came to "myself" and we're definitely not the only ones that have come to this same conclusion. The conclusion that I came to myself"
Yes, I agree. It's good to see it stated in such a way what I only am now coming to realize here which is this. The more good deeds I do, the more wholesome I live my life, the more clear and sustained practice becomes. As I deviate from that, consequences appear in the form of foggy-headedness, distracting thoughts, etc. It makes perfect sense. If you throw clouds in front of the sun, the sun becomes harder to see. Duh! This makes me happy to read because it inspires me to now double-down on this method.
vb6
2.10.4. Lokuttarakusalacitta
2.11. Abyākataniddesa
I will have to explore this over some time. A lot of new information in here.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm 2.11. Abyākataniddesa

Katame dhammā abyākatā? Yasmiṁ samaye kāmāvacarassa kusalassa kammassa katattā upacitattā vipākaṁ cakkhuviññāṇaṁ uppannaṁ hoti upekkhāsahagataṁ rūpārammaṇaṁ, tasmiṁ samaye saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṁ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanaṁ, chaṭṭhāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.

Avyakata P.S. is designated as neither Akusala or Kusala. Avyakata P.S. is karmically neutral or just kamma vipaka. From Avyakata P.S. or kamma vipaka, we initiate new kamma usually through the Akusala-Mula P.S and under the right conditions, the kusala-mula P.S.
You used these two words very closely together and they have different meanings.

Abyākata
Avyakata

I want to make sure I understand it was intended to be said that way. Would you be able to clarify?

------ On to page 2 ------

There is a lot of pali I'm unfamiliar with which will take me some time to go through so off the bat, I can't make complete sense of it.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm My understanding of samma ditthi is that it's the Tilakhana (Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta), the four noble truths, Assada, adinava, nissarana, and other Dhamma teachings.
If it isn't too much trouble, would you have a full list of these teachings you consider samma ditthi? Just names would be enough so I can put them on my research list. If the entire list is in MN 9, I will be able to grab them myself.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm Person A) doesn't focus on the breath, but uses their mind directly to give rise to thoughts / ideas/ speech of "Samma ditthi".
If I understand correctly, would this give rise to good kamma? Which can be beneficial but still is kamma generation?
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm Person B) Who focuses on breathing in and out and feeling it all and other practices . . . After being able to focus on their breathing and feelings, then they get to samma ditthi maybe? Or one believes that by focusing on the breath is sammaditthi?
I believe you unfairly under-represent this practice as anyone willing to practice anapanasati for the attainment of samma ditthi most likely has some form of sutta study as well, and unless totally relinquished of agency to a teacher, they should be investigating texts as well as practice. Not just blind practice. That's the hope anyway. Else I think they're fishing with a stick and line with no hook hoping to catch dinner.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm #1.
#2.
#3.
#4. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, I haven't been learning from or following what most Theravada Buddhist Practitioners would be learning or practicing these days. As far as I remembered, I believe it's taught in todays Theravada doctrine that one "needs" jhana's or maybe jhana helps one to attain Nibbana or Magga phala. To be honest, when I was typing this, I was going agree that by doing breath meditation getting into anariya jhana's can help one to attain magga phala with the "correct" dhamma. But a realization / remembrance just came to mind is that one of the most important requirements to become Sotapanna (Steam enterer) is by "listening" from a teaching of an Ariya". Before typing this, my understanding has been that one doesn't need jhana's to attain magga phala, but now I don't "see" where jhana's are needed to attain magga phala. This is evidenced by the Abhidhamma teachings on Citta Vithi. The Citta Vithi for jhana's and magga phala are different. From what little I know about the Abhidhamma is that there's no Citta vithi's that goes through jhana's then to magga phala in the "same citta vithi". BUT one can attain magga phala through anariya jhana's based on 89 (121) types of citta's analysis. The conclusion that I have come to now is that one can attain magga phala with or without jhana's.
This feels quite standard progression of practice from my perspective.

As for requiring jhanas to attain magga phala, I view jhana as allowing greater clarity. But there must still be a learned understanding of what to use that clarity on. This is where I think "listening from a teaching of an ariya" is needed. Fortunately the Buddha was a fully perfected one and left the Tipitaka to learn from so we may all have this access. For example MN118 which details what to do and how to do it fairly clearly.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm Person A cut's out the step of placing one's focus and attention on the breath and feelings through different parts of body. Person A believes by practicing anapanasati this way is even more practical in everyday situations than focusing on one's breath.
I would believe this practice described as mindful of body as body. The first of the four foundations of mindfulness. There are three others which may fulfill your idea of something "other" than breathing practice. For example, my interpretation of the fourth of the four foundations of mindfulness, mind objects as mind objects, likely includes thoughts and ideas. I can understand the allure of losing the breath and chasing fully the thoughts and ideas but this runs a risk of losing grounding. Losing the present moment and creating stories. Hence maintaining the mindful breathing during these practices. It seemed the Buddha very clearly wanted to incentivize remaining in the present moment awareness from my recollection of teachings on how to meditate, posture, energy, fingers lightly touching, touching the earth, things of that nature.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm By doing this person A becomes more sensitized to one's feelings (vedana) and thoughts (citta's & cetasika's) towards lobha, dosa, moha. Once aware both in thoughts (citta, cetasika's) and feelings (vedana) of lobha, dosa, moha, one is more likely to refrain from committing the dasa akusala in one's action (kaya), speech and thoughts.
Here too, I see number 2 and number 4 of foundations of mindfulness. Feelings as feelings, mind objects as mind objects as described in MN118.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm Person B, practices anapanasati as breath meditation. I'm sure I don't need to mention all the different ways of doing so since everyone is well versed in that . . .
This again I believe is too condescending of lay practitioners. Initiates clearly go through a ton of trial and error for a multitude of reasons...not all of the reasons are the newbie's fault. Avijja is a long lasting nuisance but practice helps to abate avijja. Even if it is fruitless practice, with striving it crosses off what doesn't work at minimum.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm A. Why do I need to or put time and effort in being aware of my breath and feeling it's feelings throughout my body when I can directly attain nibbana through my "mind, citta's, cetiska's"?
You do not mention much of Piti, sukha, pamojja, passadhi in the examples above or in your practice...all things attention on breathing directly cultivate. All things which lead to greater samadhi and nana.

Yes, you mention doing wholesome deeds and those certainly supplement the good feelings but I'm uncertain if that is enough to skip breath-work and still find strong samadhi simply by thinking kusala things.

I believe there may be a misunderstanding here that the breath is only feeling through the body AKA the first of the four foundations of mindfulness. The breath stays with the other three. I may make a recommendation to re-examine the four foundations of mindfulness in full detail.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm B. How practical is focusing on breathing in and out in everyday life situations?
It's my best friend. I take it with me everywhere and am getting increasingly good at not leaving it anywhere. The more moments we spend together, the better my life becomes as a result. I don't focus exclusively on it, but I certainly catch the beginning or tail end of many many many breaths each day as I go to the market, exercise, write comments on forums, watch netflix...it's always there and I never find it a burden. In fact, it is what allows me to pause between causes and effects. It allows me to change a reaction into a thoughtful response in many situations. So long as I allow it to be present with me.

Losing the breath means fuzzying up the present moment awareness. When the present moment awareness is fuzzy, the mind can inject stories covertly. The breath is very important from my perspective and not practicing keeping it in the attention has the potential to lead to avijja in places unexpected. Especially in someone as wise as yourself who may feel unnecessary to re-visit earlier practices.

Revisiting MN118 showed me I totally missed some important bits of information which would have helped me a lot more if I'd allowed myself the opportunity to refresh my understandings of these things.
:anjali:

EDIT: Added example #4 text to the quote for better context.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Dhammapardon wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 5:53 am
You used these two words very closely together and they have different meanings.

Abyākata
Avyakata

I want to make sure I understand it was intended to be said that way. Would you be able to clarify?
I stated "Avyakata P.S. is designated as neither Akusala or Kusala. Avyakata P.S. is karmically neutral or just kamma vipaka."

Both Avyakata and abyakata can mean the same thing.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Avyakata

http://www.tathagata.org/sites/default/ ... 20Life.pdf

Ctrl F in the pdf file, type in abyakata. Page 96 at the top.

Quoted from the pdf file . . .

"Abyākata literally means “indeterminate” that refers to the phenomena that cannot be determined as wholesome or unwholesome."

But if you and others want to insist the meanings are different, which is possible like you mentioned. I don't have anything to say to that.
If it isn't too much trouble, would you have a full list of these teachings you consider samma ditthi? Just names would be enough so I can put them on my research list. If the entire list is in MN 9, I will be able to grab them myself.
The answer is actually pretty simple, but can be different answers for different people.

#1. What do you and others believe to be considered as samma ditthi?
This is where I think "listening from a teaching of an ariya" is needed.
One of the 4 requirements to attain Sotapanna magga phala is to "listen" a teaching from an ariya.
Fortunately the Buddha was a fully perfected one and left the Tipitaka to learn from so we may all have this access. For example MN118 which details what to do and how to do it fairly clearly.
I really have to thank a DW member for bringing up this sutta. I hope it can be of consideration for others.

The Gaṇakamoggallānasutta

https://suttacentral.net/mn107/en/sujat ... ript=latin

To me, I have found 3 informative parts in this sutta. One of the parts that I want to share here is, basically Moggallana asked the Buddha if all his students (ariya's already) reach Nibbana (within the same life). The Buddha said "no" and Moggallana asked "how and why" since the disciples were already ariya's. They know what to do, the path and end goal. As well being under the Buddha's direct guidance, how could they fail to reach enlightenment within the same life time?

Based on my understanding of the answer that the Buddha's give, made me awed. I highly recommend reading the sutta.

Based on my understanding of the Buddha's answer and relating it to this discussion. The example that I can think of is, imagine us DW members living in the same building. A prize of $1 billion dollars is being given away. A flyer is given to us that live in the same building with the exact same directions to the location of the money. Say the location is in a remote place and all of us is unfamiliar with. Modern technology like cell phones, GPS, etc . . . cannot be used to assist the person in finding the location. Say within a reasonable time limit, how many of us here one think will end up at the destination regardless of being the first to arrive or not? Remember, it's the exact same directions that are given.

:bow: :bow: :bow:
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm Person A) doesn't focus on the breath, but uses their mind directly to give rise to thoughts / ideas/ speech of "Samma ditthi".
If I understand correctly, would this give rise to good kamma? Which can be beneficial but still is kamma generation?
Can I ask you the same question, except replace "mind" with "breath" instead?

What do you believe to leads first? One's thoughts, breath, speech, or actions?
I can understand the allure of losing the breath and chasing fully the thoughts and ideas but this runs a risk of losing grounding. Losing the present moment and creating stories.
For your future consideration, what we're experiencing in our current (present) moment is not the present moment. This is based on abhidhamma and pancakkhanda analysis.

In regards to creating stories, I can also see it this way. Creating stories can be used to one's benefit. The point is to "create good stories". "Creating "stories" of Buddha dhamma", "contemplating on what one has learned and incorporating one's life experiences to verify the teachings", talking to oneself. Would this fall into the category of creating stories that you mentioned?

Of course if someone's mind is heavily covered with the 5 hinderances, then they would be unwholesomely creating, chasing their thoughts and ideas and would have difficulty focusing their minds. I would agree that breath meditation here can possibly help.
Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:25 pm By doing this person A becomes more sensitized to one's feelings (vedana) and thoughts (citta's & cetasika's) towards lobha, dosa, moha. Once aware both in thoughts (citta, cetasika's) and feelings (vedana) of lobha, dosa, moha, one is more likely to refrain from committing the dasa akusala in one's action (kaya), speech and thoughts.
Here too, I see number 2 and number 4 of foundations of mindfulness. Feelings as feelings, mind objects as mind objects as described in MN118.
You left out a line.

"they don't need to focus on the breath instead focus on contemplating on the Buddha dhamma (citta's & dhamma) directly with their mind whenever possible. By doing this person A becomes more sensitized to one's feelings (vedana) and thoughts (citta's & cetasika's) towards lobha, dosa, moha. Once aware both in thoughts (citta, cetasika's) and feelings (vedana) of lobha, dosa, moha, one is more likely to refrain from committing the dasa akusala in one's action (kaya), speech and thoughts. As well doing their best, person A initiates kusala thoughts, speech, actions whenever possible".
You do not mention much of Piti, sukha, pamojja, passadhi in the examples above or in your practice...all things attention on breathing directly cultivate. All things which lead to greater samadhi and nana.
Dhammapardon, let me ask you and others. Do all of you always mention everything every time? What about the things you and others mention here in this forum? If not, why not?

But if you want want an answer, piti, sukha, pamojja passadhi comes in accordance based on one's progression on the path. When one get their practice right, then piti, sukha, etc. will automatically follow. Does this need to be mentioned?

As well, I'm not really interested in cultivating piti, sukha, pamojja, passadhi, etc . . . for the sake of just doing so. I see them as an outcome of practice and not something to attach or seek. Piti and sukha are given up before getting to the last jhana.

I'm not saying achieving or striving for piti, sukha and others isn't beneficial, they can be and are since they can help people in different ways. It's just that I focus more on my practice, then thinking about them.

I'm not sure if you and others are aware, but reading or listening to Buddha dhamma could be considered cultivating those attributes that you mentioned. Would anyone here disagree? And this can be done without needing to focus on one's breath.
Yes, you mention doing wholesome deeds and those certainly supplement the good feelings but I'm uncertain if that is enough to skip breath-work and still find strong samadhi simply by thinking kusala things.
You don't think one can strongly concentrate on something with their minds?

And

When your referring to wholesome deeds, I hope your referring to this:

"When one "takes in" or thinks about kusala thoughts such as contemplating on the 4 noble truths or Tilakkhana or other dhamma teachings (WITH LOKUTTARA SAMMADITTHI), they can be said to be activating the Kusala-Mula P.S, the cycle that leads one to Nibbana"

In your own words:
"The more good deeds I do, the more wholesome I live my life, the more clear and sustained practice becomes"
I'm not sure if you and others are aware, but it's taught by the Buddha that contemplating on anicca or the Tilakkhana is the greatest merits. Meaning the best good deed one can do . . . I wish for all of us living beings do more good deeds that benefits ourselves and others. Helping us to live a more wholesome life with wisdom and achieve our goal in Buddhism.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

RobertoAnces wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:48 pm

This is my opinion:

If you read Ānāpānassatisutta sutta, Buddha is talking to ariya, so them all have already the right view, so them all have already an understanding of paticca-samuppada, in any case it would help in further understanding, but developing Dependent Origination knowlege is prior to anapanassati meditation, if you're not ariya maybe should start by the beginning:

Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training):
Hi RobertoAnces,

To me, you made some interesting comments. You're probably the 1st or 2nd person that I have came across here on DW that mentioned what I just quoted from you. I would like to ask you again, what is it said or taught in the Ganakamoggallanasutta (MN 107) that makes you say or think that anapanasatti is not for the puthujjana's?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by santa100 »

RobertoAnces wrote:Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training)
Nowhere in MN 107 does it say Anapanasati is an exclusive teaching for Noble disciples only. Matter of fact, right in the Anapanasati Sutta itself, the Buddha explicitly stated that there are disciples in His audience who have not attained any of the Noble Fruits yet, these are paragraphs 13 and 14, following paragraph 12, which describes the Stream-Enterers. So the key takeaway is that one doesn't have to be a Noble disciple, but one does need to show sufficient level of interest and diligent cultivation of the Buddha's Teaching.
MN 118 wrote:12. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

13. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus. In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four right kinds of striving…of the four bases for spiritual power…of the five faculties…of the five powers…of the seven enlightenment factors…of the Noble Eightfold Path—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

14. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness [82]…of compassion…of altruistic joy…of equanimity…of the meditation on foulness…of the perception of impermanence—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus. In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:00 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:48 pm

This is my opinion:

If you read Ānāpānassatisutta sutta, Buddha is talking to ariya, so them all have already the right view, so them all have already an understanding of paticca-samuppada, in any case it would help in further understanding, but developing Dependent Origination knowlege is prior to anapanassati meditation, if you're not ariya maybe should start by the beginning:

Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training):
Hi RobertoAnces,

To me, you made some interesting comments. You're probably the 1st or 2nd person that I have came across here on DW that mentioned what I just quoted from you. I would like to ask you again, what is it said or taught in the Ganakamoggallanasutta (MN 107) that makes you say or think that anapanasatti is not for the puthujjana's?
All this is just my opinion:

I read your question, I did not answer because it's very long and it will not convince anyone, everyone arrives as a noob and begins to do "anapanasati", myself included. Even teachers send you to do "anapanasati".

The short answer would be, anapanassati is not for pathujjenas because pathujjenas can not do anapanasati. It would be wiser to start as Buddha described in gradual training, it would be wiser to start by the beginning.

If you go to the gym and hear the coach say to someone:
ok, today we are going to do a set of deadlifts with 1000 lbs.
isn't it obvious that he is not speaking to a noob? That this instructions aren't intended for a noob?, first he has not bothered to explain what the deadlift is, nor what is the correct technique to do the deadlift, he takes it for granted in the instructions, these are instructions for perfecting the deadlift, and second, how a novice is going to lift 1000 lbs?, that's for very, very strong professionals.

Long answer:

Anapanssati is not for developing mindfulness, you already knowing to be mindful is taken for granted, anapanassati as the Buddha himself says in the sutta is to fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness, is to perfect mindfulness, not to learn it, is to become a arhat:

MN 118:
And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated, fulfil the four foundations of mindfulness?
let's see the instructions:

MN 118:
“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.
Notice he don't say, "He trains thus", so being mindful of the beath is not part of the training of anapanassati, is something required, these instructions are for someone that already knows what is mindfuness and how to be mindful.

Ok, let's go home, done, I've teached you how to do mindfulness, instructions to learn mindfulness, go to the forest and with mindfulness in front of you, bearth mindful. :thinking:

Instructions to learn to deaflift, go to he gym and do a deadlift with 1000 lbs. Done, I'm a perfect teacher!!

This is important because in the sutta MN 107 Buddha explains how you should develop mindfulness and it is not by doing anapanassati, one does not learn to deadlift by going to the gym and trying to deadlift 1000 lbs.

MN 107:
When they are committed to wakefulness, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, have mindfulness and situational awareness. Act with situational awareness when going out and coming back; when looking ahead and aside; when bending and extending the limbs; when bearing the outer robe, bowl and robes; when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting; when urinating and defecating; when walking, standing, sitting, sleeping, waking, speaking, and keeping silent.’

When they have mindfulness and situational awareness, the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, frequent a secluded lodging—a wilderness, the root of a tree, a hill, a ravine, a mountain cave, a charnel ground, a forest, the open air, a heap of straw.’ And they do so.
This is how Buddha recommends learning mindfulness, not doing anapanassati. One learns mindfulness trying all day, 24/7/365, from waking up to falling asleep, when sitting meditating as well, but trying to learn mindfulness is not anapanasati, nor should one follow the instructions of anapanassati, if you're a noob an are sited trying to learn mindfullness instructions on MN 107 should be followed. And by the way, in my opinion to learn mindfulness what you do 16 hours a day is more important that what you do in 1 hour sited in meditation, and instructions are the same when yuo're sited or pooing in the bathroom.

And when your already know mindfulness and all the previous things Buddha gives your the same instructions in MN 107 that in MN 118, go to the forest, tho the root of a tree ...

Ok, so in my opinion in anapanassati mindfulness is a prerequisite, we can continue:
“Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out.

“Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’

“He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing rapture’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing rapture.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing pleasure’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing pleasure.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mental formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mental formation. ’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the mental formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the mental formation.’

“He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the mind’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the mind.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in gladdening the mind’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out gladdening the mind.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in concentrating the mind’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out concentrating the mind.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in liberating the mind’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out liberating the mind.’

“He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence. ’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating fading away’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating fading away.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating cessation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating cessation.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment. ’
"He trains thus" is what is being asked of us, we are being asked to contemplate our mind ("experiencing the mind" ), so it turns out that citta-nimita is another requirement ...
progressively
So mindfulness (not all pathujjena know hot to establish it), and now the sign of your mind (not all pathujjena sees his mind, not all apthujjena know what mind is), but he ask us even more, she want's us to liberate our mind!!! :shock: (‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the mental formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the mental formation.’, ‘I shall breathe in liberating the mind’) and this part of the training only can be done by an ariya:
Skip to discourses guide
Pañcaverabhayasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato

Linked Discourses 12.41
5. Householders

Dangers and Threats

At Sāvatthī.

Then the householder Anāthapiṇḍika went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. Seated to one side, the Buddha said to the householder Anāthapiṇḍika:

“Householder, when a noble disciple has quelled five dangers and threats, has the four factors of stream-entry, and has clearly seen and comprehended the noble cycle with wisdom, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves: ‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’

What are the five dangers and threats they have quelled? Anyone who kills living creatures creates dangers and threats both in the present life and in lives to come, and experiences mental pain and sadness. That danger and threat is quelled for anyone who refrains from killing living creatures.

Anyone who steals creates dangers and threats both in the present life and in lives to come, and experiences mental pain and sadness. That danger and threat is quelled for anyone who refrains from stealing.

Anyone who commits sexual misconduct creates dangers and threats both in the present life and in lives to come, and experiences mental pain and sadness. That danger and threat is quelled for anyone who refrains from committing sexual misconduct.

Anyone who lies creates dangers and threats both in the present life and in lives to come, and experiences mental pain and sadness. That danger and threat is quelled for anyone who refrains from lying.

Anyone who uses alcoholic drinks that cause negligence creates dangers and threats both in the present life and in lives to come, and experiences mental pain and sadness. That danger and threat is quelled for anyone who refrains from using alcoholic drinks that cause negligence. These are the five dangers and threats they have quelled.

What are the four factors of stream-entry that they have? It’s when a noble disciple has experiential confidence in the Buddha: ‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’

They have experiential confidence in the teaching: ‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha—visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.’

They have experiential confidence in the Saṅgha: ‘The Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is practicing the way that’s good, direct, methodical, and proper. It consists of the four pairs, the eight individuals. This is the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples that is worthy of offerings dedicated to the gods, worthy of hospitality, worthy of a religious donation, worthy of greeting with joined palms, and is the supreme field of merit for the world.’

And a noble disciple’s ethical conduct is loved by the noble ones, unbroken, impeccable, spotless, and unmarred, liberating, praised by sensible people, not mistaken, and leading to immersion. These are the four factors of stream-entry that they have.

And what is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom? A noble disciple carefully and properly attends to dependent origination itself: ‘When this exists, that is; when this doesn’t exist, that is not. Due to the arising of this, that arises; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. Ignorance is a condition for choices.

Choices are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’ This is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom.

When a noble disciple has quelled five dangers and threats, has the four factors of stream-entry, and has clearly seen and comprehended the noble cycle with wisdom, they may, if they wish, declare of themselves: ‘I’ve finished with rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the ghost realm. I’ve finished with all places of loss, bad places, the underworld. I am a stream-enterer! I’m not liable to be reborn in the underworld, and am bound for awakening.’”
Linked Discourses 48.3
1. Plain Version

A Stream-Enterer (2nd)

“Mendicants, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. A noble disciple comes to truly understand these five faculties’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape. Such a noble disciple is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”
So only ariya can escape from suffering, because if you have mindfulness, you can see your mind, you can escape/cease suffering as anapanassati asks you to do/train, you're an ariya by definition, being able to escape/cease suffering is the line that separates ariya from pathujjena.

So buddha is sending you to do meditation when you are already an ariya and therefore you can escape the hindrances at will (or in a more or less consistent way) and therefore you can enter jhana at will (or in a more or less consistent way) and then you can follow the instructions on MN 111.

It will not work for a pathujjana, he does not know how to escape from craving at will (or in a more or less consistent way), he cannot enter jhana at will, entering jhana for him is possible but depends on whether or not there are hindrances (craving) at that moment. It's something he cannot control and if besides being a pathujjana he is a beginner full of craving and sensual desire it will not work at all, better start by the beginning sila ...

if a pathujjana sits and is stressed, or restless, or worried, or horny... he does not know how to escape these states, if he is a nooby he may not even be able to see them, but even if he can see them, he is advanced, he can somehow be mindful and see the sign of his mind, he cannot escape them. Only an ariya can, and Buddha is asking you to do that, so why would Buddha ask to a pathujjana to train something he knows can't do?

So that's what I believe about anapanasati sutta and satipatthana sutta, they are for ariya, buddha recommended them to ariya, and only work for ariya, only ariya know how to escape of greed and hatred (hindrances, not always obviously unless you're not an arhat), and only ariya can enter jhana at will, pathujjana should concentrate in sila, guarding the sense doors, developing mindfulness, developing citta nimita, developing right view and then anapanasati will work and will work very easily ...

if you're at least a sotapanna, by practicing mindfulness, by practicing watching your mind, by practicing paticca-samuppada, by practicing escaping form suffering your perfect it, and when you fulfill it you're an arhat.

By the way:
And what is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom? A noble disciple carefully and properly attends to dependent origination itself: ‘When this exists, that is; when this doesn’t exist, that is not. Due to the arising of this, that arises; due to the cessation of this, that ceases. Ignorance is a condition for choices.

Choices are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’ This is the noble cycle that they have clearly seen and comprehended with wisdom.
Paticca-samuppada, is prior to anapanasati, if your are mindful and your can see your mind, paticca-samuppada is easy, with this, that is, you can see it in your mind, both things simultaneously at the same time. Your can further improve paticca-samuppada doing anapanasati but is not developed through anapanasati, is perfected through anapanasati or satipatthana sutta.

You can further improve your deadlift by lifting 1000 lbs, but a good tecnique is prior to lifting 1000 lbs, unless your want to visit the hospital.

So a beginner trying anapanasati:



no progress, broken back.

A beginner starting by the beginning, by the basics, progressively as Buddha recommended to laymen:



It has chances to improve and succeed.

That's why i didn't answered sorry, it takes me forever to answer a question like that, :namaste:
RobertoAnces
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

santa100 wrote: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:29 am
RobertoAnces wrote:Anapanassati is not for pathujjana, if you read MN 107 Gaṇakamoggallānasutta (gradual training)
Nowhere in MN 107 does it say Anapanasati is an exclusive teaching for Noble disciples only. Matter of fact, right in the Anapanasati Sutta itself, the Buddha explicitly stated that there are disciples in His audience who have not attained any of the Noble Fruits yet, these are paragraphs 13 and 14, following paragraph 12, which describes the Stream-Enterers. So the key takeaway is that one doesn't have to be a Noble disciple, but one does need to show sufficient level of interest and diligent cultivation of the Buddha's Teaching.
MN 118 wrote:12. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

13. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus. In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four right kinds of striving…of the four bases for spiritual power…of the five faculties…of the five powers…of the seven enlightenment factors…of the Noble Eightfold Path—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus.

14. “In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness [82]…of compassion…of altruistic joy…of equanimity…of the meditation on foulness…of the perception of impermanence—such bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of bhikkhus. In this Sangha of bhikkhus there are bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing.
It may be, but what is the point of naming all the ariya and then saying and the pathujjena too, isn't it faster to say all?

I understand that it makes it clear that all those bikkhus are ariya and then it goes on, there are some of these bikkhus (all of them ariya) twho abide devoted to the ...

In any case, it could be circumstantial, I'm not only basing myself on this paragraph, I am basing myself on the things in my post above.
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