How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:22 pm Throughout though, sati here always means "mindful of" than "mindful with". Mindful of an aspect of the body, mindful of feelings, mindful of states of mind and mindful of the qualities of our mind. On ānāpānasati and maraṇasati I think "sati" here means the same, as Coëmgenu pointed out above.
Per the descriptions you have given, anapanasati means both 'mindful of' and 'mindful with'.
Mindfulness with breathing, and mindful of x.

As I said though the distinction doesn't change much in terms of how one practices. It's also not the subject of this thread so I don't want to get sidetracked.
You have not offered of how you think anapanasati relates to paticcasamupada.

If anapanasati leads to liberation, and liberation is comprehending paticcasamupada then they must relate to each other.
Well I'm not aware of a sutta which specifically lays out the practice from mindfulness of breathing through to understanding dependent origination and then awakening step by step. That is usually the domain of the various Abhidhammas, as far as I'm aware. All I can give you from the suttas is what I quoted earlier. I could say how I think it would occur. Throughout satipaṭṭhāna and ānāpānasati there is insight into the conditionality between dhammas. You begin to understand how dhammas arise and cease according to conditions. How the body depends upon the breath, how the breath being calm and still is a condition for the body being calm and still. How a calm and still body and breath are a condition for the stillness of nāma. How the stillness of nāmarūpa is a condition for the stillness of the citta. How the hindrances are a condition for much suffering and lack of clarity, and how the awakening factors are a condition for freedom from dukkha and clarity. How when the hindrances are present, the awakening factors fade. How through ignorance we have tainted volitions towards or against things. How this tainted intentionality then establishes our awareness of things, how awareness gets stuck on things and is sustained by tainted intentionality. How these dhammas arise and cease always according to these conditions. When we understand then the dependent origination of dhammas, when we truly see it, then we also finally see nibbāna. No arising, no ceasing, no body, no mind. That there was no place started from, and no destination to arrive at and that that understanding (paññā) is too dependently originated and so let go of.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:55 am ... Anapana helps ending windmill fights, good householder...
Thank you, bhante. Will keep this in mind.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:55 am "Atma" (I) is an old way to address oneself, in a third person way, and still in use here when an ascetic speaks with one not left home. Anapana helps ending windmill fights, good householder.
You don't use atma unless you know that person personally, hello...

Don't think one have left home they have understood. I have found little that know.

Anapana can't be practiced without hearing true dhamma and perfected precepts/virtues. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. People is deluded to think they can practice anapana without hearing true dhamma and have precepts as foundation. No result can be achieved even 80 years of practice.
you wrote:Once found firm faith or left home in seek for such, Atma could maybe point to ways to ease mind-fomations deep ensnared in kaya. For now, may he hold on what gives him security.
O boy.... Faith is not merely blind faith. One earned faith by practice and realized the result (over and over). This unshakable faith is confidence about triple gems that can only grow from the result of wisdom matured.

Although left home is ideal, but this is not the requirement.

Kaya is just a shell. One will let go, no need to hold on for security. What are you talking about? 😅😅

One only hold on wisdom, ariyan precepts, dhamma, samadhi till end of life. These needs to be maintain 24/7, not merely as you wish.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

If one want to know the connection of DO and anapanasati.

Just look at sankhara definition:
Citta sankhara = vedana and sanna (cease at sannavedayitanirodha)
Kaya sankhara= in and out breath (cease at 4th jhana)
Vaci sankhara = forming thoughts/ concepts (cease at 2nd jhana)

Anapana > (fulfill) satipatthana > bojjhanga

Also, If one practice anapana, one will attain jhana(samma samadhi) 24/7. If one can't get to jhana, they are a FOOL according to Buddha.

There is no need any commentaries or abhidhamma.

Even to breath is to suffer. 😅😁😁😅 How can one still hold on to the kaya (body)? It is a sore.

But, be careful some sutta contain mundane way to explain DO, so, one needs to refer to SN 12.2 and MN 43.

Eventually one needs to review all dhamma/experience from eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, then let go all of it.

O yeah, if you still enjoy household life (work, house, family), no point of trying anapana. You won't get any result, better practice precepts till you realize the result here and now.

If you insist on anapana, be careful the mind will let go the family. You will repel the lay life. But i see more crazy folks (suicide or other mental problem), then one fully understood. 😅😁😁

Btw, All of these can be tested from time and time. 😁😁
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Post by sunnat »

dependent on cause there arises effect

hearing the dhamma
ardently undertaking the training

anapana sati : mindfulness of in and out breathing, as it is now,

entering the present,
leads to stillness, or focus,
detached from the detritus that flows along the river of life.

cause and effect

good in the beginning, middle and end for all
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by form »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:19 am How does the practice of fulfilling the steps of anapanasati (breath meditation) relate to paticca-samuppada (Dependent origination)?

What are the good resources and discussions of this process?
To slow down or temporary stop DO at higher levels
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:57 am
Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:55 am "Atma" (I) is an old way to address oneself, in a third person way, and still in use here when an ascetic speaks with one not left home. Anapana helps ending windmill fights, good householder.
You don't use atma unless you know that person personally, hello...

Don't think one have left home they have understood. I have found little that know.

Anapana can't be practiced without hearing true dhamma and perfected precepts/virtues. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. People is deluded to think they can practice anapana without hearing true dhamma and have precepts as foundation. No result can be achieved even 80 years of practice.
you wrote:Once found firm faith or left home in seek for such, Atma could maybe point to ways to ease mind-fomations deep ensnared in kaya. For now, may he hold on what gives him security.
O boy.... Faith is not merely blind faith. One earned faith by practice and realized the result (over and over). This unshakable faith is confidence about triple gems that can only grow from the result of wisdom matured.

Although left home is ideal, but this is not the requirement.

Kaya is just a shell. One will let go, no need to hold on for security. What are you talking about? 😅😅

One only hold on wisdom, ariyan precepts, dhamma, samadhi till end of life. These needs to be maintain 24/7, not merely as you wish.
No proper de-velopment of mind unless not de-veloped kaya, householder. Yet he is free of building what ever though castle based on how he likes to perceive his home. Only an Arahat does no more act on what ever, right or wrong faith. And as long as not on the lane every faith is a blind, one kind toward decay, one upwardly, one kind beyond. It requires firm blind faith to ever get out of doubt.

Even fighters, manager, ... welness... all do certain anapana to gain required strength in what's called householder-equanimity. Doing skills for right purpose, right view, matters for the path beyond.

Holding firm on house, no reason beside of sensual desires at all not to close the door and leave the keys behind, and speaking of things not knowing even on the most gross side. Sure, those teachers providing with householder-pride have to be blamed at first place.

What ever gains in the world work not different from the eight-factored path, but just having wrong instead right at the beginning.

Only in the Pure aboves dwell exclusively Noble Ones. Ask Deva Siva how it works, the different between common and noble virtue, the different between samma and miccha.

Devas have mostly strong conceit and are hard to teach *smile* thinking they are smart, having gained temporary good state.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:39 am
Good luck. Can’t help too. Look like someone just ramble without understanding even the basic saddha.

Btw, no way one can do any anapanasati without hearing true dhamma from ariya and perfected ariyan precepts. It will just frustrate the person. The mind won’t settle down because the body shake/move all over.

Eventually, people will seek commentaries or abdhidhamma or others.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:50 am
Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:39 am
Good luck. Can’t help too. Look like someone just ramble without understanding even the basic saddha.

Btw, no way one can do any anapanasati without hearing true dhamma from ariya and perfected ariyan precepts. It will just frustrate the person. The mind won’t settle down because the body shake/move all over.

Eventually, people will seek commentaries or abdhidhamma or others.
Saddha means renouncing the world, good householder, and yes, one not willing to hear the good Dhamma from those gone forth, will just practice "miccha anapana".

Maybe one day, meanwhile, may good householder but as much time as possible to stay aware of the breath, as it may help to stop fighting windmilles ones calmed don't the kaya-unrest, the house-arrest.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:16 pm
Don’t worry about me. I know the path. You should worry about you. Good luck.

Just an advice, Please stop saying something that you don’t know in future.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:51 pm
Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:16 pm
Don’t worry about me. I know the path. You should worry about you. Good luck.

Just an advice, Please stop saying something that you don’t know in future.
Is that the good householders teacher?
The one with T-Shirt, in the middle on table with nun and householder on same level while teaching the Dhamma? The Arahat, noble Ariya with perfect Vinaya, teaching Anapana? Who told him all he assumes, or does all come from the one who knows the path, himself?

Just that one would know and not possible assume wrong.

"Sometimes they even blame the monks for not practicing..."
Last edited by Johann on Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Meanwhile some here might be interested in knowing the OP's questioned relation, which is best done by taking a comfortable seat, but aside all worldly matters and, leave with thoughts of goodwill for all, at least for now:
“With attentive mind he breathes in, with attentive mind he breathes out.

I. (1) “When making a long inhalation he knows: 'I make a long inhalation'; when making a long exhalation he knows: 'I make a long exhalation.'

(2) “When making a short inhalation he knows: 'I make a short inhalation'; when making a short exhalation he knows: 'I make a short exhalation.'

(3) ” 'Clearly perceiving the entire (breath-) body I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself; 'clearly perceiving the entire (breath-) body I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.

(4) ” 'Calming this bodily function I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself; 'calming this bodily function I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.
Done so a while, if no bodily calm and joy arises, and thinking to need to go on, just try to know the breath all the time and avoid as much as possible being busy with what hinders to do just that. Soon one will get more familiar with cause and effects, know himself better, breath by breath.

If calm and joy arises, enjoy it, as long as possible.
II. (5) ” 'Feeling rapture/satisfaction (pīti) I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself; 'feeling rapture I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.

(6) ” 'Feeling joy I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself; 'feeling joy I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.
To get yourself better known then:
(7) ” 'Sensing the mental formation (citta-saṅkhāra) I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself, 'feeling the mental formation I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.

(8) ” 'Calming the mental formation I will breathe in,' thus he trains himself; 'calming the mental formation I will breathe out,' thus he trains himself.
Try to get the base for the second step by doing a lot the first, as it helps to do much lesser harmful for one and others, so to gain the joy possible easy again.

Soon yours will be more then fit to listen to, think or reflect on the good Dhamma with proper attention.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:54 pm ...
Good luck. :) This teaching is indeed difficult to see.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Lesser a matter of good luck, good householder, then right association, that the lokuttara paticca-samuppada arises, Saddha/Sila/Satipatthana gets developed, Sakkāyadiṭṭhi given up, being turned to proper, birth-giver, attention. Here both chains of depending co-arising, that bindind, and that liberating:
1. Avijjāsuttaṁ

Ignorance

[61] Bhikkhus, a beginning to ignorance cannot be pointed out, 'Before this there was no ignorance, it occured afterwards. Bhikkhus, it is pointed out: On account of this, there is ignorance.

Bhikkhus, I say, ignorance too has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition of ignorance?

The five obstructions is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the five obstructions have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the five obstructions? The three misbehaviours is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the three misbehaviours have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the three misbehaviours? Lack of restraint in the mental faculties is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even the lack of restraint in the mental faculties has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the lack of restraint in the mental faculties? Lack of mindful awareness is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the lack of mindful awareness has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the lack of mindful awareness? Unwise attention is the reply.

Bhikkhus, I say, even unwise attention has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for unwise attention? Lack of faith is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even lack of faith has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for lack of faith? Listening to the incorrect Teaching is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even listening to the incorrect Teaching has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for listening to the incorrect Teaching? Associating non- Great beings is the reply.

Thus bhikkhus, not associating Great beings leads to listening to the incorrect Teaching. Listening to the incorret Teaching leads to lack of faith. Lack of faith leads to unwise attention. Unwise attention leads to lack of mindful awareness Lack of mindful awareness leads to unrestrained mental faculties. Unrestrained mental faculties lead to the three misbehaviours. The three misbehaviours lead to the five obstructions. The five obstructions lead to ignorance. Thus these are the supportive conditions for ignorance.

Bhikkhus, like water from the big drops of rain, that fall on top of the mountains coming down to the lowlands fill up mountain creeks and streams. They in turn fill up the small rivers and the huge rivers and fill up the great ocean. And that water becomes the supportive condition for the ocean.

In the same manner bhikkhus, not associating Great beings leads to listening to the incorrect Teaching. Listening to the incorret Teaching leads to lack of faith. Lack of faith leads to unwsie attention. Unwise attention leads to lack of mindful awareness Lack of mindful awareness leads to unrestrained mental faculties. Unrestrained mental faculties lead to the three misbehaviours. The three misbehaviours lead to the five obstructions. The five obstructions lead to ignorance. Thus these are the supportive conditions for ignorance.

Bhikkhus, I say, knowledge and release too, have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for knowledge and release? The seven enlightenment factors is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the seven enlightenment factors have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the seven enlightenment factors? The four establishments of mindfulness is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the four establishments of mindfulness have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the four establishments of mindfulness? The three right behaviours is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even the three right behaviours have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the three right behaviours? Restraint in the mental faculties is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even the restraint in the mental faculties have a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for the restraint in the mental faculties? Mindful awareness is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even mindful awareness has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for mindful awareness? Wise attention is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even wise attention has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for wise attention? Faith is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even faith has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for faith? Listening to the correct Teaching is the reply. Bhikkhus, I say, even listening to the correct Teaching has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for listening to the correct Teaching? Associating Great beings is the reply.

Thus bhikkhus, associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the corret Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wise attention. Wise attention leads to mindful awareness Mindful awareness leads to restrained mental faculties. Restrained mental faculties lead to the three right behaviours. The three right behaviours lead to the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness lead to the seven enlightenment factors. The seven enlightenment factors lead to knowledge and release. Thus these are the supportive conditions for knowledge and release.

Bhikkhus, like water from the big drops of rain, that fall on top of the mountains coming down to the lowlands fill up mountain creeks and streams. They in turn fill up the small rivers and the huge rivers and fill up the great ocean. And that water becomes the supportive condition for the ocean.

In the same manner bhikkhus, associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wsie attention. Wise attention leads to mindful awareness Mindful awareness leads to restrained mental faculties. Restrained mental faculties lead to the three right behaviours. The three right behaviours lead to the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness lead to the seven enlightenment factors. The seven enlightenment factors lead to knowledge and release. Thus these are the supportive conditions for knowledge and release.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:54 am ...
o Btw, you need a lot of Good luck, trust me.

Surely one will never see. One can quote all the sutta, but still completely blind.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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