How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Scabrella
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Scabrella »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:49 am ah... now we are chasing back and forth. Look at AN 3.127. :) Only one who is a non returner can go to Aviha realm.
Hello. Try to be conscious many people have not read these strange books you are quoting. It is best to explain with clear explanation why only one who is a non returner can go to Aviha realm.

I tried my best to research this and found this scripture. What are these thousands of gods doing in Aviha for eons? Were they all non returner? Why is it taking them so long to reach Nirvana?
Then, as easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, I vanished from the Subhaga Forest and reappeared with the Aviha gods. In that order of gods, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of deities approached me, bowed, stood to one side, and said to me, 'Ninety-one eons ago, good sir, the Buddha Vipassī arose in the world, perfected and fully awakened.

https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Joe.c wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:49 amHence, Buddha knows his knowledge is supreme to other teachers who are hollow and have No Proof.

So don't waste your time, practice precepts first and keep hearing true dhamma (Sutta).

One who practice and follow the exact steps will get the result NOW. Not in future after you died.
About this "Aviha realm", what is this unhollow proof? Also, if the result is NOW, and not after death, why are you quoting books about Aviha Realm after death?
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:16 am I tried my best to research this and found this scripture. What are these thousands of gods doing in Aviha for eons? Were they all non returner? Why is it taking them so long to reach Nirvana?
Not explain by Buddha. But the time there is different from human world time. It is much much slower. Same thing with higher heaven their time is slower. Life is just relaxing or enjoying depending on the realm. Human realm timing is too much stress. 😅

But pure abodes are only for non returner. Time longer or short to end suffering is not important, it is just the way how one developed their faculties.

Btw, these questions are unimportant. The teaching is about ending of suffering and way that lead to end suffering.
you wrote: About this "Aviha realm", what is this unhollow proof? Also, if the result is NOW, and not after death, why are you quoting books about Aviha Realm after death?
A non returner will know when their mind is always in Jhana. That means they will have the same existence as a brahma realm, here and now. Where they are going that is not important. The most important things is whether you have ended the dukkha now.

Non returner is always free from sensual pleasure/desire here and now.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:13 pm Assāsa Passāsa – What Do They Mean?

In an ordinary sense, assāsa and passāsa mean inhaling and exhaling. However, the deeper meanings in the context of Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā are about purifying a mind by taking in morals and discarding immoral.

Ānāpāna and Assāsa Passāsa

1. Ānāpāna comes from “āna” + “āpāna,” where the latter two words mean “take in/import” and “discard/export.” Thus, in connection with the Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā, assāsa and passāsa represent taking in morals and discarding immoral.

- Cultivating (taking in) good morals and discarding immoral is the basis of Buddha Dhamma.
- Breathing in and breathing out are physical activities. How can that cleanse a mind?
- Yet, it can calm the mind because when concentrating on the breath, it cannot wander around and start generating sensual, angry, or foolish thoughts. That is a lower form of Samatha Bhāvanā. However, Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is NOT a Samatha Bhāvanā, as we will see below.
- A better way to get to Samatha is to listen to a Dhamma discourse or read about a Dhamma concept.
For many people food is not considered food if it doesn't contain meat(heavy food), there won't arise the knowing(pajanati) which is required for the bodily(access to abdomen) sensation of full to arise, instead there is something missing feeling.
Breath is a bit different since it is bodily already, and it turns food into subtle breath what then reaches the brain(heaven) and the leftovers from heaven are given back to earth(lower abdomen). In case you wonder about how the donation to gods is done and the leftover from gods is for earthlings(maybe, just a guess).
When subtle breath reaches brain then the sati(mindfulness) arises and sutta says it is fruitful to practice anapanasati. When you are mindful of breathing then there will be gathered subtle energy to belly(earth). When there is enough gathered then there will be the term sikkhati become relevant, training is different to mindfulness onwards.
--
What lal tries to sell is thinking mind based conventional things like don't steal, don't kill.. My response to this is inspired by an alchemy text i read what says: 'all this teaches worldly men to behave properly in the earthly way in order to induce them later to seek immortality'.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Dhammapardon wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 9:11 am
Okay then, let me ask you and others. Is there any difference between a puthujjana and an ariya sila?
Perhaps ardency and diligence?
Yes, partially correct, but those 2 words / meanings don’t do justice to the full picture of the differences between a puthujjana and an ariya sila.
It's like using one part of an elephant to explain what an elephant is, would it give a complete picture? I'm going to be in the same position as you with my explanation below, but hopefully I can share different parts of the elephant to help others get the general idea of how an elephant looks like if we all never saw one before.

Would you and others agree that the meanings of English words "ardency and diligence" would correlate mostly with samma vayama (right effort) on the noble 8 fold path?

If it's agreed upon, then how does one get to / through to samma vayama? Or what steps needs to be taken on the noble 8 fold path before getting to samma vayama?

It's samma ditthi.

After the things I have mentioned here on that "there's two Noble 8 Fold Paths", I don't know how much you and others have comprehended, let alone even taken serious consideration what was presented.

But by sharing and using a part of my own life experiences and what I have understood about the path as an example. Hopefully it can help you and others to understand the differences between puthujjana and ariya sila.

One can take this as they like.

Starting in my early 20's, sometimes whenever I committed a mild akusala kamma. Within 48 hours later, some misfortune would befall me. For instance, my car would get broken into and some things get stolen. That happened to me at least twice and other similar occurrences. This has to be more than coincidence right?

Going through such experiences helped me to see that whenever I did bad / immoral deeds, it returned back to me. I thought maybe I should do less bad / immoral deeds eh. Such experiences also helped me to see / know that there's such a thing as cause and effect.

During those times and in the past, like I have mentioned. Before coming across Theravada Buddhism, I was already looking into what it means to be "spiritual".

One thing that I have come to learn / see is that common to all religions and spiritual teachings. Ethics or "being a good person" is what's often taught and emphasized. One of my spiritual goals back then was to become a "good person" since I had some general understanding that it's not a good idea to do bad / immoral / unwholesome deeds. I also wanted to "ascend" this world, go into the heaven's to escape this planet or this world so I can live in a better world or become one with the creator and views like that . . .

So even before coming across Buddhism, I kinda had some idea about cause and effect and was already practicing sila or what I would call puthujjana sila. During those times I knew carrying out bad deeds would bring bad consequences and doing good deeds should bring good fruit / results. At that time, I knew nothing about the Buddha's teachings such as the Tilakkhana and the 4 noble truths at that time.

So I refrained from bad deeds because I don't want bad deeds to happen to me. I carried out good deeds in hopes to ascend into the heavens or get something good in return, such as more money or material possessions. My earlier views and understandings were influenced by some of the earlier (distorted) spiritual teachings that I learned such as "The Secret". Where one tries to manifest things by affirmations and through other techniques that they wish / desire / want. Thinking back about this . . . I can only facepalm at myself.

After coming across Theravada Buddhism or specifically the Puredhamma. Long story short, where I am today, I refrain from bad / immoral / unwholesome deeds because I believe that I have finally cultivated the foundational understanding of what dukkha ariyasacca is and the other 3 noble truths.

What I have understood is that The Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada and other teachings are contained within the 4 noble truths. One of the ways to describe what dukkha ariyasacca is the "hidden / not evident" suffering in attaching / craving for the 5 aggregates. And by not understanding the general teaching behind the 4 noble truths is what keeps one in samsara or perpetuating one's suffering in the rebirth process.

Now I refrain from bad / immoral / akusala kamma as much as possible because not just that I don't want bad things to happen to me, but because I have come to learn that carrying out such actions is THE CAUSE FOR MY FUTURE SUFFERING" or that by tanha, upadana with raga, dosa, moha for the 5 aggregates IS THE CAUSE OF SUFFERING and it's worthless / meaningless / does not provide me with refuge to do so.

What is anicca leads to dukkha, therefore anatta.
Yad aniccam tam dukkham, tam dukkham tad anatta.
Things (this world) that's not to my liking or is vexatious (anicca) and leads to suffering (dukkha), it's (anatta) meaningless / worthless, has no essence or should be taken as one's essence, there's no refuge for one in such things or world.

If the person had the intelligence especially wisdom and they have understood this much or that it's one's view and understanding. Why would that person want to carry out immoral / bad / akusala deeds or why wouldn’t they want to put effort into refraining from doing so?

It's like there are people who are afraid of touching a burning stove. Having been burnt before, knows how it feels and the consequences of doing so. Imagine one has never touched a burning stove before, we wouldn't know exactly how it feels to get burnt and the deeper consequences of doing so until we experience and understand it ourselves.

I recently came across a desana / teaching that I would like to share with others. For those who are serious on the path and have an opened mind, the video will give you some new perspectives on the 4 noble truths, especially the 1st dukkha ariyasacca.

Jati "pi" dukkha, jara "pi" dukkha", etc . . . For the word "pi" the common translation we have today "is" or "birth is suffering, etc . . ". Before coming across the video for the last 3-4 years, I always thought that there was more to the word "pi" than what was being translated / taught and had some rough idea what some of these other possible meanings / understanding for the word "pi" in the dukkha ariyasacca is. Only until recently coming across the video that I was finally able to confirm what I was already thinking about "pi" a few years back. It was such an encouraging experience to know that what one was already thinking some time back, being not certain with one’s view and understanding only to be confirmed at a later time.



For us English speakers only, I would actually recommend watching all the video's. Use your discernment, hope it helps.



As for carrying out good / moral / wholesome deeds (punnabhisankhara, anenjabhisankhara) anyone that's learning and practicing any "spiritual teachings / religion" would already know / have some general idea that it's helpful / beneficial to carry out good / moral / wholesome deeds and refraining from akusala kamma. This applies to everyone before attaining Arahanthood no matter if one is a Buddhist or not.

Now days, it's clear to me that there isn't much of a point wishing / desiring anything in return from this world for any moral / wholesome / kusala kamma carried out besides to help oneself and others to attain Nibbana. As well, it doesn't make sense to want anything in return from this world that's Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta.

I don't know if you and others remembered what I mentioned in the other thread about the relationship between the 8 fold path and tilakkhana. But I mentioned that the person walking on the mundane 8 fold path starts out as sila, samadhi, panna. The majority of us need’s to practice sila first to help cultivate panna or that sila and panna goes hand in hand.

But when one proceeds on the lokuttara (transcendental) noble 8 fold path, then it becomes panna, sila, samadhi. Wisdom (panna) leads sila on the lokuttara path. I came across a sutta that mentions Sila --> samadhi --> panna, then panna --> sila --> samadhi. I wish I could post it here right now, but unfortunately I didn't bookmark it when I did come across it and couldn't find it again. I just remember that moment, "ahh I see it now in the sutta".

Basically some of the differences between puthujjana and ariya sila is that ariya sila is lead by wisdom or in other words lokuttara samma ditthi. Or that a puthujjana sila doesn't have the "complete understanding or picture" why one should be ethical while an ariya would. Or a puthujjana doesn't know how to act with yoniso manasikara, while an ariya would and so on and on . . .
If I may attempt and understanding..
Is the difference in the two types of right thought the understanding of anatta and defilements?
That's one of the ways to understand it, but with just the words "anatta" and "defilements", it could be explained further. From the 2 comparisons of "right thought" brought up in our previous post from the sutta. You should've looked at the Pali words "ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa".

"Ariyacittassa" (NOBLE thoughts) can only arises because of "lokuttara samma ditthi" or when one is an ariya. Once again what's one of the ways to understand what lokuttara samma ditthi is? It's the 4 noble truths . . .

I see you often only mention anatta and never anicca and dukkha together with it. As far as I have observed, whenever you mention anatta, you would use the terms / words such as "no self, none self, not self". Depending on what you're understanding is with all this kind of "not self, non-self, etc . . ." stuff as anatta. This is just my view / opinion, it's possible that you might not even have the accurate / correct understanding of what "anatta" is. I'm not only saying this to you, but to all others that view and practices anatta in such a way, but of course, it's possible that you and others might have gotten the general idea what anatta is?

As well, to me it's baffling that you or anyone would mention anatta without anicca and dukkha along with it. If you and others are only trying to see / understand anatta by itself, especially for someone that's just starting on the path. The thing I can say to you and others is that we're like elementary school students and already trying to learn and comprehend university level materials. The messed up thing in all of this is I'm not even sure if you and others have even gotten the correct / accurate general idea what "anatta" is.

Like I mentioned, you always bring up anatta but never anicca, dukkha with it, I could be wrong or mistaken about this. But whoever or whatever it's that your learning from, to me it's seems likely it's heavily influenced by Venerable Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga, which could be like some of the Theravada traditions today.

Please understand anyone that see's this post, I have nothing personally against the person / they / them. To me it's all about what's being mentioned / taught / stated and nothing personally against the person themselves.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el202.html

“Aacariya Buddhagohosa’s definitions are as follows: “The characteristics of impermanence and suffering are known whether Buddhas arise or not; but that of not-self is not known unless there is a Buddha;… for the knowledge of it is the province of none but a Buddha” (Aayatana Vibhanga A./VbhA. 49-50). “The Blessed One in some instances shows not-self-ness through impermanence (as in M. 148 cited below), in some through suffering (as in S. XXII, 59 cited above), and in some through both (as in S. XXII, 76 or XXXV, 1 cited above). Why is that? While impermanence and suffering are both evident, not-self is unevident” (MA. ad M. 22/vol. ii, 113); for “the characteristic of not-self seems unevident, obscure, arcane, impenetrable, hard to illustrate and hard to describe” (VbhA, 49)”

I just came across this material a few days ago which I never knew about.

Let's say if someone mentioned or tried to teach me that:
The characteristics of impermanence and suffering are known whether Buddhas arise or not; but that of not-self is not known unless there is a Buddha; While impermanence and suffering are both evident, not-self is unevident
I would use counter questions such as have they even gotten the "general" idea / understanding what anicca, dukkha is or more specifically the Tilakkhana? Did they know that the Tilakkhana can be "taught" and "be known" to the world ONLY when a SammaSam Buddha appears in this world?

If one contemplates / see's only anicca as "impermanence" and dukkha (suffering), that comes with old age, decay, sickness, death . . . That "impermanence" and "suffering" is easy for anyone to see and is evident, but both anicca and dukkha is more than just seeing and understanding anicca as impermanence and (dukkha) suffering that's evident.

What's been mentioned, the mistakes / inaccuracies is so erroneous, to me it's really unfortunate to see and to those that would believe / hold such views. Does anyone here actually believe that a Buddha would appear in this world to teach something so mundane, easy to see and evident???

What I just quoted above, even though it mentions "Aacariya Buddhagohosa definition are as follows", but I believe that this might be wrongly interpreted or translated from the Pali Visuddhimagga. Based on what I have learned and observed, my understanding is that Buddhagohosa did distort some of the Buddha's teachings but not anicca, dukkha, anatta in other languages (English in our case).

If one would like to investigate further what I just mentioned about Buddhagohosa and the Visuddhimagga. I'll provide a link below to Venerable Lal materials where it provides a focused analysis of the Visuddhimagga. Of course use your discernment and take it as you.

https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -analysis/

Why I brought all this up is because I believe what I just mentioned about the Visuddhimagga and it's influence on Theravada Buddhism today is one of the reasons is why I believe in some certain Theravada Traditions / linage / teachings, anatta as no / none/ not self is given so much emphasized even over anicca, dukkha.

I'm not sure if you and others know or can see for yourselves that it's possible whatever one's learning, it could be heavily influenced by others whom might possibly not have the correct / accurate / reliable understanding of the Tilakkhana or the 4 noble truths or even other parts of the Buddha dhamma.

In these last 5 years of practice, this is approximately the time and effort I have put into contemplating / understanding / practicing the Tilakkhana

50 % Anicca 35% Dukkha 15% Anatta

But it's not wrong to start off focusing on any of the 3 characteristics, after all everyone learns better in different ways or have their own characteristics / traits of learning. Someone with high wisdom faculty could understand anatta within a short period of time, but for the majority of us, it starts from understanding anicca, dukkha, then anatta. The different Buddha dhamma teachings are meant to teach / match those with different personality characteristics / traits. This one of the other characteristic of the Buddha dhamma that makes me venerate the triple gem, as well how complete and consistent the teachings are.

To me, if one understands the first 2 characteristics, wouldn't it make sense that it would help the person to understand the 3rd (anatta) as well? :)
These are things a self does. The consciousness is engaged with the thinking and has lust for the fruits of good deeds and possibly aversion to bad deeds. Would this generate new kamma?
Anything related to avija, tanha with the 6 roots lobha, dosa, moha and alobha, adosa, amoha would generate new kamma.
It’s the thinking—the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.
This sounds more like thinking disengaged from consciousness and understanding the drawbacks of defilement. Maybe no volition other than past kamma coming to fruition? No new kamma
Not certain what you're exactly trying to say . . . but to me, I understand the English translation differently than what I believe your interpretation is.

My understanding is that "initially" instead of disengaging from consciousness, one should engage / place / apply / implement one's consciousness / thoughts / speech (talking to oneself or contemplation) on thoughts of the Buddha dhamma such as kusala and nibbana, which is a "noble mind and undefiled mind" and that's "devoid of asava's" (anasavacittasa).

Comparing an ordinary person with attainments of jhana's to an ariya even with no attainments of jhana's. The ordinary person wouldn't know the procedure / process / doctrine to remove / eliminate / completely eradicate "defilements". (Kilesa's, asava's, anusaya's, etc . . .). While the ariya would know the procedure / process / doctrine to remove / eliminate / completely eradicate "defilements". (Kilesa's, asava's, anusaya's, etc . . .) and would apply their mind and practice towards simply and one of the different ways to explain this, satipatthana and attaining nibbana.

Dhammapardon, one the reasons why I'm willing to spend some time and effort in answering your and others questions is because I could tell that you recently just started learning Buddhism (less than a few years). Seeing you and others starting out reminded me of myself 7 years ago.
Through my experience and observation of others, I believe the first few years of learning Buddhism is one of the most important time period for the learner. This is because most likely one's views and beliefs aren't firmly established yet and that there's a good possibility that one's mind is still open / receptive to other idea's and interpretations of the Buddha dhamma.

Because if one's views and beliefs are firmly established, it’s possible that one could miss or overlook other dhamma teachings or interpretations that could benefit them greatly on the path. As well it would be more difficult for that person to unlearn their old habits and beliefs / views.

This isn't a problem if one's beliefs and views are correct / right / proper in the first place, but if they aren't, it could lead one to hold wrong views and down the wrong path for their entire life time. What a waste of a precious opportunity . . .

I’m not sure if you can see this, especially on forums and out there. . .

But there are some that have been learning / practicing Buddhism for a long time and then realize at a later time that what their learning or practicing isn’t the correct path or it isn’t helping them to further progress. Then they investigate further to correct their mistakes.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
auto
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by auto »

Noble Sangha wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:47 pm But when one proceeds on the lokuttara (transcendental) noble 8 fold path, then it becomes panna, sila, samadhi. Wisdom (panna) leads sila on the lokuttara path. I came across a sutta that mentions Sila --> samadhi --> panna, then panna --> sila --> samadhi. I wish I could post it here right now, but unfortunately I didn't bookmark it when I did come across it and couldn't find it again. I just remember that moment, "ahh I see it now in the sutta".

Basically some of the differences between puthujjana and ariya sila is that ariya sila is lead by wisdom or in other words lokuttara samma ditthi. Or that a puthujjana sila doesn't have the "complete understanding or picture" why one should be ethical while an ariya would. Or a puthujjana doesn't know how to act with yoniso manasikara, while an ariya would and so on and on . . .
searchengines
https://suttacentral.net/an3.26/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Thinking, ‘I’ll fulfill the entire spectrum of ethical conduct I haven’t yet fulfilled, or support with wisdom in every situation the ethical conduct I’ve already fulfilled.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.21/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Without fulfilling the practice dealing with supplementary regulations, it’s impossible to fulfill the practice of a trainee.
Without fulfilling the practice of a trainee, it’s impossible to fulfill ethics.
Without fulfilling ethics, it’s impossible to fulfill right view.
Without fulfilling right view, it’s impossible to fulfill right immersion.
lokuttara
AbhidhammatthaSangahaofAnuruddhācariyapdf16 wrote:7. Loka + Uttara = Lokuttara. Here Loka, means the five aggregates. Uttara means above,
beyond or that which transcends. It is the supra-mundane consciousness that enables one to
transcend this world of mind-body
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:07 pm The following is a summary of Ānapānasati and its connection to Paticca Samuppāda. I believe that is the topic of this thread.
- This information is only for the wise—no need to comment.

Ānapāna: "Āna" or "taking in" and "Āpāna" for "discarding."

Level 1: For those who have no understanding of Buddha Dhamma: Ānapānasati means focusing the mind on "breathing in and out." Of course, that is a crude form of "meditation" for calming the mind. It cannot cleanse a mind. No connection to Paticca Samuppāda.

Level 2: Ānapānasati means "taking good morals and good habits in," and "Āpāna" is to "discard bad morals and bad habits."
- This step is necessary to be able to comprehend the Deeper Buddha Dhamma (Four Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppāda, and Tilakkhana) leading to Nibbāna.

Level 3: Noble version of Ānapānasati to be practiced to get to Nibbāna, after comprehending the Four Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppāda, and Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta.)
- In this version, "Āna" or "taking in" is the Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda that leads to Nibbāna. " Āpāna" or "to discard" is the Akusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda that sustains the rebirth process (Samsāra).

Those who are interested can read the recent post; there were several earlier posts on Ānapānasati: viewtopic.php?p=697911#p697911
So what is your problem when people starting with the anapanasati as a simple breath meditation?

Here's sutta quote,
In this case you must be an arhant in order to develop noble 8thfold path.
https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: When the noble eightfold path is developed, the following are fully developed: the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, and the seven awakening factors.
for developing noble 8thfold path, the things related to the akusala, kusala are fully developed already,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Right_Exertions wrote:The Four Right Exertions (cattārimāni sammappadhānāni) are defined with the following traditional phrase:

"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for:
" the sake of the non-arising [anuppādāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[ii] ... the sake of the abandonment [pahānāya] of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
"[iii] ... the sake of the arising [uppādāya] of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
"[iv] ... the maintenance [ṭhitiyā], non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen."


In sum: I have necessary foundation to discern the differences what you make with the 1-3 levels.

Still i don't buy the anapanasati is not about breath. I don't get how the noble 8foldpath samma sati negates the possibility it being about breath.(ignore the italics)

Perhaps it is something to do with the word bhāvanā? like, unless you are arhant(buddha grade not wisdom liberated) it is not bhāvanā what you doing?
Difference between savaka arhant and buddha is that the buddha gives rise to a path.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bh%C4%81van%C4%81/ wrote:bhāvanā:'mental development' (lit.'calling into existence,producing')
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Noble Sangha wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:47 pm What I have understood is that The Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada and other teachings are contained within the 4 noble truths. One of the ways to describe what dukkha ariyasacca is the "hidden / not evident" suffering in attaching / craving for the 5 aggregates. And by not understanding the general teaching behind the 4 noble truths is what keeps one in samsara or perpetuating one's suffering in the rebirth process.

Now I refrain from bad / immoral / akusala kamma as much as possible because not just that I don't want bad things to happen to me, but because I have come to learn that carrying out such actions is THE CAUSE FOR MY FUTURE SUFFERING" or that by tanha, upadana with raga, dosa, moha for the 5 aggregates IS THE CAUSE OF SUFFERING and it's worthless / meaningless / does not provide me with refuge to do so.

What is anicca leads to dukkha, therefore anatta.
Yad aniccam tam dukkham, tam dukkham tad anatta.
Things (this world) that's not to my liking or is vexatious (anicca) and leads to suffering (dukkha), it's (anatta) meaningless / worthless, has no essence or should be taken as one's essence, there's no refuge for one in such things or world.
Is adherence to sila a pre-requisite or a byproduct of the path?

Or both? First a pre-requisite, then a byproduct.

Observing cause and effect of good and bad actions and outcomes would lead discerning people to refrain from the bad as refraining can be seen to reduce dukkha. As you state, bad actions are the cause of future suffering. This is sort of that first turning point in the cyclical nature of dukkha that allows a discerning person to realize there's a way out.

Watered down mundane right view is something like to escape this current and future dukkha, stop doing the things that cause it (like the unwholesome actions). So adhering to sila provides a reward of less dukkha. This cultivates detachment and dispassion for the unwholesome since the reward of less dukkha when weighed against the reward of being unwholesome proves the former to be a better reward. Then sila becomes a natural byproduct of efforts with right view.

If the person had the intelligence especially wisdom and they have understood this much or that it's one's view and understanding. Why would that person want to carry out immoral / bad / akusala deeds or why wouldn’t they want to put effort into refraining from doing so?
Because the concept can be understood but knowing how to apply it in real life is not the same as understanding the concept. Or certain real life situations can be understood how to apply it but not in all situations.

I recently came across a desana / teaching that I would like to share with others.
I really enjoy this Venerable’s teaching style. Easy to understand and affirming of what’s learned elsewhere. Thanks for sharing.

I see you often only mention anatta and never anicca and dukkha together with it. As far as I have observed, whenever you mention anatta, you would use the terms / words such as "no self, none self, not self". Depending on what you're understanding is with all this kind of "not self, non-self, etc . . ." stuff as anatta. This is just my view / opinion, it's possible that you might not even have the accurate / correct understanding of what "anatta" is. I'm not only saying this to you, but to all others that view and practices anatta in such a way, but of course, it's possible that you and others might have gotten the general idea what anatta is?
I don’t recall but I may have in the past used no-self. This is an older understanding of mine. I currently see anicca as not-self or non-self. To elaborate further on my current understanding, anicca means panca-kandha (5 clinging aggregates) are not self, anicca, and clinging to them leads to dukkha. This body, these thoughts, views, feelings, and consciousness which, at least for me, continues to grab hold of and arrange these body, feelings, views, thoughts, etc to try and form a persisting self. But it’s ultimately all twigs and leaves and is only a sort of habit or conditioned state or learned behavior or even just some illusion that binds them together into a self.

As well, to me it's baffling that you or anyone would mention anatta without anicca and dukkha along with it. If you and others are only trying to see / understand anatta by itself, especially for someone that's just starting on the path. The thing I can say to you and others is that we're like elementary school students and already trying to learn and comprehend university level materials. The messed up thing in all of this is I'm not even sure if you and others have even gotten the correct / accurate general idea what "anatta" is.
At least in my case, the goal is not to divert attention away from anicca and dukkha. As correctly stated by you in another post it’s not always necessary to mention everything every time. Understanding of the chariot fully may require understanding of the interconnected nature of all the parts but examining each specific part individually has its benefits as well.

Like I mentioned, you always bring up anatta but never anicca, dukkha with it, I could be wrong or mistaken about this. But whoever or whatever it's that your learning from, to me it's seems likely it's heavily influenced by Venerable Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga, which could be like some of the Theravada traditions today.
I have only explored small parts of the Visuddhimagga and Ven. Buddhaghosa’s examinations. I wouldn’t be able to tell which of my current views is or isn’t influenced by those examinations. There is no way to learn other than through the interpretations of my own mind. Any teacher or student has to contend with varying levels of micchaditthi until it is sammaditthi.

At the moment this is where my interest resides as I’m making the most progress in my understanding here. This is in no way to devalue anicca or dukkha because the understanding of all three is critical. Though right now specifically playing with detachment from the aggregates through my view of anatta is proving useful.

Image
If one contemplates / see's only anicca as "impermanence" and dukkha (suffering), that comes with old age, decay, sickness, death . . . That "impermanence" and "suffering" is easy for anyone to see and is evident, but both anicca and dukkha is more than just seeing and understanding anicca as impermanence and (dukkha) suffering that's evident.
This sounds like a description of an intellectual understanding of the two with a push to examine them experientially. But if one contemplates the anicca and dukkha within the manosankhara, the feelings accompanying those contemplations, they are experiential examples of anicca, and dukkha within themselves aren’t they?

I'm not sure if you and others know or can see for yourselves that it's possible whatever one's learning, it could be heavily influenced by others whom might possibly not have the correct / accurate / reliable understanding of the Tilakkhana or the 4 noble truths or even other parts of the Buddha dhamma.
It’s almost completely influenced by it. Everything read, everything heard, everything practiced is influenced by others.

Oddly enough it does appear when enough people with some understanding describe something, even if not completely accurate, a picture begins to shape. Like when people guess the number of beans in a jar, there are ways to take the guesses instead of observing the jar to find a more accurate count of the beans. Maybe not the best example but hopefully it shows how using enough partial solutions can still lead to some level of accuracy.

Not certain what you're exactly trying to say . . . but to me, I understand the English translation differently than what I believe your interpretation is.

My understanding is that "initially" instead of disengaging from consciousness, one should engage / place / apply / implement one's consciousness / thoughts / speech (talking to oneself or contemplation) on thoughts of the Buddha dhamma such as kusala and nibbana, which is a "noble mind and undefiled mind" and that's "devoid of asava's" (anasavacittasa).
I believe we’re saying the same thing. I may not be using accurate words so let me try to rephrase. Instead of misapprehending the consciousness as self, realize through understanding of anatta how consciousness is not-self. In doing so, it becomes less “you” and more a tool you have access to. This sets stage for wise implementation and reduces room for heedlessness and ego-driven-ness. The question that comes up is what to do with it?

Dhammapardon, one the reasons why I'm willing to spend some time and effort in answering your and others questions is because I could tell that you recently just started learning Buddhism (less than a few years). Seeing you and others starting out reminded me of myself 7 years ago.
Through my experience and observation of others, I believe the first few years of learning Buddhism is one of the most important time period for the learner. This is because most likely one's views and beliefs aren't firmly established yet and that there's a good possibility that one's mind is still open / receptive to other idea's and interpretations of the Buddha dhamma.

Because if one's views and beliefs are firmly established, it’s possible that one could miss or overlook other dhamma teachings or interpretations that could benefit them greatly on the path. As well it would be more difficult for that person to unlearn their old habits and beliefs / views.

This isn't a problem if one's beliefs and views are correct / right / proper in the first place, but if they aren't, it could lead one to hold wrong views and down the wrong path for their entire life time. What a waste of a precious opportunity . . .

I’m not sure if you can see this, especially on forums and out there. . .

But there are some that have been learning / practicing Buddhism for a long time and then realize at a later time that what their learning or practicing isn’t the correct path or it isn’t helping them to further progress. Then they investigate further to correct their mistakes.
Your time and efforts are greatly welcome and I’m certain people learn quite a bit from examining your responses. What good are holding on to views and beliefs when the Buddha specifically informed holding to them is dukkha?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

RobertoAnces wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:10 am
I was not aware that the word noob had negative connotations, it was not my intention to offend anyone.
I don't know how others feel about the word "noob" here on DW, but when I use to play online video games, it usually had a negative connotation. I'm definitely not offended by the word, but not sure about others. To me, I could tell that it was not your intention to offend anyone, but just mentioned what I did so that we all can take more precautions with our wording.
The can is already opened, and it is bigger than if anapanassati is for pathujjanas or not, is about what is samadhi
Anapanasati being for ariya or not, not very important compared to the issue of Samadhi.
Actually it is very important, just like the topic of whether needing jhana’s or not to attain sotapanna stage and magga phala. I sort of indirectly mentioned why it’s an important topic in my previous reply to you. I apologize if it was not clear, I can be more direct if you like why anapanasati being for ariya or not is an important topic that needs to be sorted out.
There are other things that must be developed before samma samadhi in which time/effort would be better invested, but everyone does what they want with their time.
I agree
If that's the case, this ajahn is opening the can of worms, I guess it's no surprise being a disciple of Ajahn Chah, another famous Ajahn who opened a bigger can of worms earlier, in a veiled way, and with a lot of tact so as not to hurt sensibilities.

It seems that he agree with us, the level of samadhi necessary for stream-entry is very low, just a clear mind and being calm, sila and knowledge are more important. (mindfulness and some degree of undertanding of anatta too
See this post:

viewtopic.php?p=711964#p711964

In regards to Ajahn Passano and the video you posted, I didn’t watch it but I would agree with and support anyone that mentions / teaches that one doesn’t need to attain jhana’s or just needs to be in the vicinity of jhana’s (in other words, suppression of the 5 hindrances), including the other requirements to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala.
No, IMO the aim of dhamma practice is not to dominate the mind, the mind cannot be dominated, the body cannot be mastered.

I believe you might have misunderstood what I was saying, I mentioned:

"One of the main points of dhamma practice is to have the meditation object as "sati, samadhi" or dominate our mind and not only when nothing else is happening in our mind. In order words, we try to make the meditation object happen in our minds as much as possible".

Maybe it’s my fault for not being clear enough with what I mentioned. Let me try saying this again. One of the main points of Buddha dhamma practice is to have the meditation object or dhamma practice objective dominate / arise in our mind as much as possible. Which should be wholesome / kusala thoughts, speech and actions, but the common and widely accepted meditation practice today is on the breath and kasina objects . . .
Much less maintain concentration on an object.
Are you sure about this? How do you think people get into jhana’s?

What do you think people are trying to do by focusing on the breath or kasina objects?

What do you think samma sati, samma Samadhi is?
if what we think is correct (right view), our meditation will be correct, and a correct meditation leads to a correct samadhi, and a correct samadhi leads to a correct liberation.
I totally agree.
but in my opinion people overdo with anatta,
People do tend to overdo it with anatta, but that’s not a problem if the person got the right / proper general understanding / idea what anatta means / is. After all, it’s not wrong to start on or focus on learning / practicing any of the three characteristics since each individual learning characteristics / abilities differ. But the deeper understanding / comprehension of anatta is reserved for those born with or have cultivated higher levels of wisdom. But the majority of us don’t start out being born with high levels of wisdom, instead we have to cultivate it.

As well in regards to anatta, I really question the way it’s being taught / disseminated in the Theravada community. All I see is, no self, none self, not self, etc . . . I really wonder if the teachers and the Buddhist practitioners really got the right idea / understanding what anatta really means / is. If someone is going to use such wordings to teach / describe what anatta is, I hope they are able to explain from their own understanding what all this not self / none self / no self, etc . . . really means. . .
So tell me what you understand by nibbana,

To me this could be an important question that needs to be answered clearly / properly, but I’m not exactly sure what you’re trying to ask me to explain in regards to nibbana. If you feel like, you can try to rephrase the question again.
for stream entering be able to see processes of body and mind as impersonal is more than enough
I’m wondering if you are aware or understand the requirements of attaining stream entry? I hope all of us can be careful what we mention / say what’s needed to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala. If others takes or believes in what we mention / say about how or what’s needed to attain the sotapanna stage or magga phala. And if we’re not correct, it could give the wrong views and understanding that would mislead others. . . Depending on one's beliefs, I believe you and others can see this is quite a common occurrence on here and out there.
what do you understand by suffering, how do you think suffering is ceased
Care to share first what do you understand by suffering and how suffering is ceased?
Our views shape the way we meditate, if we do not have the right view we cannot meditate correctly because we do not know what we are doing, how to do it, nor do we know where we want to go/obtain.
... and I'll tell you how you meditate
Okay please do share with us all on here how I or others should meditate.

May you and all of us living beings be and stay well.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
RobertoAnces
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Hello,

I will change the order of the questions:
Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm Care to share first what do you understand by suffering and how suffering is ceased?
Suffering is for a Buddhist what wood is for a carpenter, the meaning is so deep that it took thousands of suttas for the Buddha to define it. For brevity I only answer what may be relevant to your questions.
Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm What I have understood is that The Tilakkhana and Paticca Samuppada and other teachings are contained within the 4 noble truths. One of the ways to describe what dukkha ariyasacca is the "hidden / not evident" suffering in attaching / craving for the 5 aggregates. And by not understanding the general teaching behind the 4 noble truths is what keeps one in samsara or perpetuating one's suffering in the rebirth process.
A good starting point, then I imagine a newborn, he soon discovers that the aggregates are a burden, as Buddha said avijja has no visible origin, this newborn is born with avijja and 2 are the main tactics that he will use to try to escape suffering:
  • Self-indulgence, every time you crave something you get it and the craving disappears.
  • Looking the other way, soon discovers that what is not paid attention to does not exist, if I am capable of ignoring my suffering it does not exist.
The first leads to sensuality and increases sensuality, I guess for this sense restraint is a good solution.

How does the second one work? Let's imagine that you have the flu, it causes you a mild persistent suffering, how could a Pathujjana handle this situation, since he likes video games as you mentioned it, if he starts playing and his mind is absorbed in the game, until such a point that he merges with the game and there is only game, he does not hear the voice of his mother/wife/children when calling him, while he is playing there is no body, there is no suffering. It's a smart tactic and it works, everyone uses it. Other example, girlfriend left me, causes me suffering, I go out with friends to distract myself and I avoid this suffering, if I don't look it doesn't exist.

And if I call this jhana, pathujjana jhana, you are absorbed in an object, the game, movie, ... and while you are absorbed there is no suffering, no hindrances, no body ...

It works, but does it work in the long run?
The way out of suffering is to do the same as a pathujjana does but do it better/deeper?

You propose to me something more refined, don't get absorbed in the game, get absorbed in a kasina. but the principle is the same, if it were so obvious, wouldn't someone have discovered it long before Buddha?

What is wrong with this aproach, well I think that Buddha said it:
  • We have gotten into this problem for not wanting to see suffering, because it is unpleasant, for always looking the other way, how are we going to get out of the problem by doing the same, looking the other way?
  • Buddha said that suffering must be understood, how are we going to understand suffering by looking the other way? by looking a kasina? Doesn't it makes more sense to attend DO link to understand DO links?
Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm
Are you sure about this? How do you think people get into jhana’s?

What do you think people are trying to do by focusing on the breath or kasina objects?
Well, if you ask me, they are doing the obvious, what any pathujjana would do, what has worked for me since I was born, let's put double effort and, a Buddha was needed because the way out of suffering went against common sense, if it had gone to In favor of common sense, anyone would have discovered it on their own.

What do you think of what I have said, heresy?, craziness?

Well you asked for my opinion :embarassed:
Noble Sangha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm
What do you think samma sati, samma Samadhi is?

Care to share first what do you understand by suffering and how suffering is ceased?
As he escapes from suffering, I have already written it in another thread, wise attention (yoniso manasikara), I do not repeat myself:

viewtopic.php?t=44589

To give a concrete example, suppose a sotapanna is mindful and aware all day and a negative emotion arises in him, melancholy for example.

What do you think would happen if you attend wisely, in an unattached way, here is the melancholy (contact), here is the feeling (I don't like it), here is the craving (suffering) and does nothing, just attends as sariputa said:
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

Would this be more consistent with the teachings of Buddha, suffering must be understood?
Does this go against the grain (look the other way or ignore it) and maybe that's why a Buddha was needed?
Can perhaps thus arise wisdom?
According to you, how would that sotapanna, who had this negative emotion arised while walking to the subway, would do?, would he sit, concentrate on a kasina...?

Do you think that you have to do something totally different throughout the day (dispersed attention to DO links) from what you do when you sit down to meditate (one pointed attention to a kasina)? Sariputta doesn't seem to me be doing anything very different in MN 111:
“Here, monks, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome phenomena, Sāriputta attains and remains in the first jhāna, which has thought and consideration, and has rapture and pleasure produced by seclusion. The phenomena which are present in the first jhāna – thought, consideration, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention4 – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.5
Well, I am sure that you are not going to like my answer very much and you are going to be very in disagreement so I hope to hear your criticisms about it.

:namaste:
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Scabrella »

RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am Suffering is for a Buddhist what wood is for a carpenter, the meaning is so deep that it took thousands of suttas for the Buddha to define it.
Do the scriptures ever use this analogy? I think suffering for a Buddhist would be like a bent nail or knot of wood for a carpenter, which the carpenter pulls out, straightens or planes. As for good timber, this would be like the Path.
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 amPathujjana'... The way out of suffering is to do the same as a pathujjana does but do it better/deeper?
What is a "Pathujjana"? A person such as your self who thinks they are travelling the Buddhist Path?
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 amI hope to hear your criticisms about it.
Are you and the Noble Guy competing for who can write the longest post?
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

The following is a general statement, not direct to anyone in particular.

The main issue is not understanding what "suffering" is, per Buddha Dhamma.

Each person may have their opinion on the definition of suffering. But this forum is on Buddhism (the teachings of the Buddha), so if we are interested in his solution to "suffering," where his definition of "suffering" applies. We must first understand what he meant by "suffering."

The following short sutta should give the basic idea:

Dukkha Sutta (SN 12.43): https://suttacentral.net/sn12.43/en/suj ... latin#5.11

At the marker 5.11 (where I pointed to) : "When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease."

- Per the Buddha, that is how the suffering ends by stopping rebirth because each rebirth ends in death!

Now, this sutta gives only an outline of the Buddha's teachings on HOW TO get there. It says the root cause for future rebirths is the attachment to sensory inputs (and doing immoral things for sense gratification). The latter (bolded) part is not described because it is a long explanation involving Paticca Samuppada.

1. If you don't believe in rebirth, you are on a different topic than Buddhism. You should participate in a philosophy forum.
- But one could learn about the rationality for rebirth stated by the Buddha in many other suttas and try to understand that logic.
- However, arguing deep suttas on "suffering" based on one's idea of getting rid of "pains and aches" (experienced in this life) is not very productive for anyone.

I would be interested in hearing the definition of "suffering" by those who say it is not about suffering in the rebirth process. However, we must remain focused on Buddha's teachings. Otherwise, as explained in #1 above, it is a philosophical discussion.
- Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitaka, just as teachings on Christianity and Islam are in the Bible and Koran, respectively. That is why we rely on the Tipitaka to understand Buddha's teachings.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Scabrella wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:44 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am Suffering is for a Buddhist what wood is for a carpenter, the meaning is so deep that it took thousands of suttas for the Buddha to define it.
Do the scriptures ever use this analogy? I think suffering for a Buddhist would be like a bent nail or knot of wood for a carpenter, which the carpenter pulls out, straightens or planes. As for good timber, this would be like the Path.
Well my mistake, my own analogy, not very one because hasn't been understood, is it not allowed?.

I'm not talking about suffering as a concrete example, obviously suffering is not like wood. What I was trying to convey is that the meaning is too deep and wide to be written in one paragraph, and therefore I do not do it so as not to make my post too long (even more long). It took Buddha lots of suttas to explain suffering I'm not going to do it in a paragraph.
Scabrella wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:44 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 amPathujjana'... The way out of suffering is to do the same as a pathujjana does but do it better/deeper?
What is a "Pathujjana"? A person such as your self who thinks they are travelling the Buddhist Path?
A person like me how thinks is traveling the path or anyone who is not yet ariya (for completion). Are you suggesting I'm not traveling the path? Well that's the forum for, isn't it?
Tell my what I'm doing wrong so I can learn ...
Scabrella wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:44 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 amI hope to hear your criticisms about it.
Are you and the Noble Guy competing for who can write the longest post?
Thank you for your criticism.

And yet even writing a lot I'm not able to explain myself, judging by your first question, I will try to summarize more in my next comments, but I always get the feeling that even after writing a lot, what I mean is not understood (because of my lack of communication skills).

And no, no trying to write long posts, I'm sharing my opinion but not a problem if I have some feedback and understand that my participation is wholesome I'll continue writing and participating, if my participation causes trouble I'll leave. Should I understand that my participation causes you trouble and maybe others? why?

Yet another long post sorry, take it as I appreciate you and think that you deserve a well-worked response :namaste:
RobertoAnces
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Lal wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:48 pm The following is a general statement, not direct to anyone in particular.

The main issue is not understanding what "suffering" is, per Buddha Dhamma.

Each person may have their opinion on the definition of suffering. But this forum is on Buddhism (the teachings of the Buddha), so if we are interested in his solution to "suffering," where his definition of "suffering" applies. We must first understand what he meant by "suffering."

The following short sutta should give the basic idea:

Dukkha Sutta (SN 12.43): https://suttacentral.net/sn12.43/en/suj ... latin#5.11

At the marker 5.11 (where I pointed to) : "When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease."

- Per the Buddha, that is how the suffering ends by stopping rebirth because each rebirth ends in death!

Now, this sutta gives only an outline of the Buddha's teachings on HOW TO get there. It says the root cause for future rebirths is the attachment to sensory inputs (and doing immoral things for sense gratification). The latter (bolded) part is not described because it is a long explanation involving Paticca Samuppada.

1. If you don't believe in rebirth, you are on a different topic than Buddhism. You should participate in a philosophy forum.
- But one could learn about the rationality for rebirth stated by the Buddha in many other suttas and try to understand that logic.
- However, arguing deep suttas on "suffering" based on one's idea of getting rid of "pains and aches" (experienced in this life) is not very productive for anyone.

I would be interested in hearing the definition of "suffering" by those who say it is not about suffering in the rebirth process. However, we must remain focused on Buddha's teachings. Otherwise, as explained in #1 above, it is a philosophical discussion.
- Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitaka, just as teachings on Christianity and Islam are in the Bible and Koran, respectively. That is why we rely on the Tipitaka to understand Buddha's teachings.
So Buddha didn't talk about how to escape suffering in this life as well as in the next ones?

It happens that I can not see my past lives so I have to believe what the Buddha said by faith, not to much to add.
It happens that I like to worry about 1 first and then about 2, so since my objective is to reach sotapanna that is what worries me and what I focus my efforts on. Talking about things that are beyond my current understanding and ability to reach no conclusions does sound like philosophy to me, but I guess my definition of philosophy differs.

Doesn't it seem logical that if the Buddha said that his teachings served to end suffering here and now we take as face value and try to prove it (it seems like a good goal in this life), And if we prove that this is true, it is super complicated, only one person in history has managed to reveal "that secret". will it not reinforce our faith much more?

Going further, if someone for whatever reason did not have faith in rebirth, do we throw it away? I have not heard that from any ajahn, it is quite the opposite, do not worry about rebirth, dhamma is good here and now.

And if that person who does not have faith in rebirth follows the Buddha's teachings did not at least inadvertently get a better rebirth, do we throw him away because he does not have enough purity in his faith? Or do we let him benefit from the Buddha's teachings?

To not let to participate or not accept people because their faith is not pure enough sound to me like religious fundamentalism, even further, even catholic fundamentalists if you have no faith they allow you to participate and pray to god so it awakens your faith in the future.

:namaste:
Lal
Posts: 949
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:39 am

Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

So Buddha didn't talk about how to escape suffering in this life as well as in the next ones?
- Yes. the mental suffering will reduce with each stage of magga phala and completely removed by the Arahant stage.
- But the physical sufferings are due to previous kamma, and they can bring vipaka until death as an Arahant. Remember that Ven. Moggallana was beaten to death. But Ven. Moggallana became free of all suffering upon his death.
. since my objective is to reach sotapanna that is what worries me and what I focus my efforts on.
What do you expect to achieve with the Sotapanna stage?
- Is it to be free of physical/mental pain in this life?
- Or is to be free of suffering in future lives?
Scabrella
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:59 am

Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Scabrella »

RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:02 pm It took Buddha lots of suttas to explain suffering I'm not going to do it in a paragraph.
Oh, so when the Buddha spoke that 1st noble truth in that 1st sermon you are saying nobody understood what he was talking about until the Buddha finished lots of "suttas"?
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