How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Cause_and_Effect
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How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

How does the practice of fulfilling the steps of anapanasati (breath meditation) relate to paticca-samuppada (Dependent origination)?

What are the good resources and discussions of this process?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

#1. The majority of Buddhist practitioners are aware / have been exposed to the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle, but at the same time they have not been taught or exposed to the other P.S. cycles. What about you? Are you aware of the other P.S. cycles besides the Akusala-Mula?

#2. It's widely taught and pretty much all current Buddhist practitioners believed that anapanasati is breath meditation. But what if anapansati is not breath meditation? Do you have an open mind about such a possibility?

Anapanasati (not breath meditation) does fulfill the steps of P.S. (One needs know the other P.S cycles and which one is fulfilled). But if one takes anapansati as breath meditation, then it doesn't fulfill the steps of P.S. This is my understanding of the Buddha dhamma, what I was taught and what makes most sense after scrutiny.

I saw this post when it was first posted. I purposely waited a few days to write this reply. I'm waiting to see how anapanasati breath meditators reply to this question.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:51 pm #1. The majority of Buddhist practitioners are aware / have been exposed to the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle, but at the same time they have not been taught or exposed to the other P.S. cycles. What about you? Are you aware of the other P.S. cycles besides the Akusala-Mula?

#2. It's widely taught and pretty much all current Buddhist practitioners believed that anapanasati is breath meditation. But what if anapansati is not breath meditation? Do you have an open mind about such a possibility?

Anapanasati (not breath meditation) does fulfill the steps of P.S. (One needs know the other P.S cycles and which one is fulfilled). But if one takes anapansati as breath meditation, then it doesn't fulfill the steps of P.S. This is my understanding of the Buddha dhamma, what I was taught and what makes most sense after scrutiny.

I saw this post when it was first posted. I purposely waited a few days to write this reply. I'm waiting to see how anapanasati breath meditators reply to this question.
What is ānāpānasati then?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:06 pm What is ānāpānasati then?
paying attention to the breath
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:19 am How does the practice of … breath meditation relate to … Dependent origination?
you don't have to meditate


just understand what dependent arising is saying
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:19 am How does the practice of fulfilling the steps of anapanasati (breath meditation) relate to paticca-samuppada (Dependent origination)?

What are the good resources and discussions of this process?
Ānāpānasati fulfils the satipaṭṭhāna.
Those mendicants who are trainees—who haven’t achieved their heart’s desire, but live aspiring to the supreme sanctuary—also meditate observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, at one, with minds that are clear, immersed in samādhi, and unified, so as to fully understand the body. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings—keen, aware, at one, with minds that are clear, immersed in samādhi, and unified, so as to fully understand feelings. They meditate observing an aspect of the mind—keen, aware, at one, with minds that are clear, immersed in samādhi, and unified, so as to fully understand the mind. They meditate observing an aspect of principles—keen, aware, at one, with minds that are clear, immersed in samādhi, and unified, so as to fully understand principles.
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.4/en/suja ... ript=latin
And what is mindfulness meditation? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. This is called mindfulness meditation.

And what is the development of mindfulness meditation? It’s when a mendicant meditates observing the body as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to originate and vanish—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They observe feelings … mind (citta)… principles as liable to originate, as liable to vanish, and as liable to originate and vanish—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. This is called the development of mindfulness meditation.

And what is the practice that leads to the development of mindfulness meditation? It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. This is called the practice that leads to the development of mindfulness meditation.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.40/en/suj ... ript=latin

Ānāpānasati/satipaṭṭhāna allows one to reach the āneñja state, that is to say the highly developed equanimity of the 4th Jhāna. In that state, when the body and mind (citta) are completely still, one can understand dependent origination.

"When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. Because phenomena become manifest, one is reckoned as ‘one who dwells diligently.’ - SN 35.97

“The giving up of sensual desires,”
replied the Buddha,
“and aversions, both;
the dispelling of dullness,
and the prevention of remorse.

Pure equanimity and mindfulness,
with investigation of principles running out in front—
this, I declare, is liberation by enlightenment,
the smashing of ignorance.”


- Snp 5.14
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:32 pm the highly developed equanimity of the 4th Jhāna. In that state, when the body and mind (citta) are completely still, one can understand dependent origination.
You’re making obstacles

:shrug:
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mjaviem
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:51 pm ... What about you? Are you aware of the other P.S. cycles ...
I think I don't. What are they?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

- "I think I don't. What are they?"

Good question mjaviem, I'll definitely point to some resources by the time I stop posting in this thread where some of these different P.S. cycles are mentioned. You and others can look into it yourselves and come to your own conclusions. What anyone thinks, I believe it would be beneficial for one's exposure. Of course, everyone has their own "beliefs" or believe to seeing / learning something that doesn't add up (inconsistent) with one's understanding, should further investigate / inquire.

- "What is ānāpānasati then?"

I'll definitely point out some resources by the time I stop posting in this thread where one can scrutinize and come to their own conclusions. I'm just waiting mostly for the op's response. Even though I mentioned anapansati is not breath meditation, “breathing” can have a “minor” role, but not the emphasis that’s being taught or being placed on it these days.

"Ānāpānasati/satipaṭṭhāna allows one to reach the āneñja state, that is to say the highly developed equanimity of the 4th Jhāna. In that state, when the body and mind (citta) are completely still, one can understand dependent origination."

- Ceisiwr if I may ask you something . . .

Can anariya’s or yogis reach the anenja state (4th jhana)? Or another way this question can be asked, did the teachers of the Ascetic Gotama (before the Buddha became enlightened) attained / reach the anenja state or the 4th jhana?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:42 am Can anariya’s or yogis reach the anenja state (4th jhana)? Or another way this question can be asked, did the teachers of the Ascetic Gotama (before the Buddha became enlightened) attained / reach the anenja state or the 4th jhana?
It's possible to reach the 4-Jhana without right view. Yet once a Brahma existence is exhausted one will find oneself in down under, good householder. Fourth Jhana isn't Āneñjatā. Even not the Pure Adobes.

As far as seen, those without virtue, if do much mental efforts, dwell around in the arupa-spheres. Developed just mind.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:09 am Even not the Pure Adobes.
Please don't just stated something which you don't have any knowledge off.

Have you talked or comprehend the beings' minds in the pure abodes?

If not, please stop stating something you don't have any knowledge off.

Stating something that you don't know, create more blockage for you now and in future.
you wrote: As far as seen, those without virtue, if do much mental efforts, dwell around in the arupa-spheres. Developed just mind.
This is another big mistakes. There is no way one can developed mind without any virtues. Have you comprehend all the beings mind in arupa realms to state this?

Even an outsider needs to have virtues first, to develop mind.

So, Please stop stating something that you don't have direct knowledge.

-----
Btw Regarding Op question, it is quite impossible if one hasn't heard about true dhamma to know all this. If one can make the connection of the SN 12.2, MN 43, SN 46, SN 47, MN 118, SN 56.11, and possibly all sutta :smile: ; one can surely see all of it.

Btw, There is no need any commentaries. It is either one see/know, or one doesn't see/know. If one know, the faculties definitely have been developed: samma ditthi, sila, samadhi and possibly panna.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:47 am
Johann wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:09 am Even not the Pure Adobes.
Please don't just stated something which you don't have any knowledge off.

Have you talked or comprehend the beings' minds in the pure abodes?

If not, please stop stating something you don't have any knowledge off.

Stating something that you don't know, create more blockage for you now and in future.
Atma (my person) has left since longer, good householder. If the stated limits what good householder thinks as block of his ideas, he's free to not take on them.
you wrote: As far as seen, those without virtue, if do much mental efforts, dwell around in the arupa-spheres. Developed just mind.
This is another big mistakes. There is no way one can developed mind without any virtues. Have you comprehend all the beings mind in arupa realms to state this?

Even an outsider needs to have virtues first, to develop mind.

So, Please stop stating something that you don't have direct knowledge.

-----
Btw Regarding Op question, it is quite impossible if one hasn't heard about true dhamma to know all this. If one can make the connection of the SN 12.2, MN 43, SN 46, SN 47, MN 118, SN 56.11, and possibly all sutta :smile: ; one can surely see all of it.

Btw, There is no need any commentaries. It is either one see/know, or one doesn't see/know. If one know, the faculties definitely have been developed: samma ditthi, sila, samadhi and possibly panna.
The whole meditation movement goes under this sphere.

It's common that people with wrong view think that cause and effect follow each other one by one.

Don't there are billionaires without virtue, and yet, how can one gain wealth without virtue...?

The point is right view.

And yes, seeing as it really works, helps to don't require taking on faith. Anapana is a very useful way to arrive there, yet tp practice it requires leaving home and restrain. It's of no glory if just developed in mind, not developed in body. Certain, if they would remember all the pain and get moved on the path, also the Niganthas could do the task proper.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:25 am Atma (my person) has left since longer, good householder. If the stated limits what good householder thinks as block of his ideas, he's free to not take on them.
Dude, there is no atma when one has entered the stream. Let alone the beings in Pure abodes. What are you talking about?
You wrote: The whole meditation movement goes under this sphere.
O boy, please check first. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for one to get into arupa/ ayatana without virtue. The body will shake and tremble, hence the mind can't settle down.
you wrote: It's common that people with wrong view think that cause and effect follow each other one by one.

Don't there are billionaires without virtue, and yet, how can one gain wealth without virtue...?
Dude, what are you talking about? a Billionaire can't gain wealth without virtue & maintain it 24/7 whether now or in the past or future. One who doesn't have virtue will suffer here and now. Even one can gain wealth fast (by lying, steal), but as fast as they gain, they will lose it ASAP as well.

Somehow you have wrong view. o boy.
you wrote:The point is right view.
Let me ask you how do you get your right view?
you wrote:Certain, if they would remember all the pain and get moved on the path, also the Niganthas could do the task proper.
Have you checked maybe you are in their path as well?

Anyway goodluck. I just say WOW... :shock: :shock:
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:25 am ... Anapana is a very useful way to arrive there, yet tp practice it requires leaving home and restrain..
Bhante, do you think anapanasati practice could still be somehow of benefit for a householder? Could a householder still find perhaps some understanding from it or perhaps develop sati from this practice or something else?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Johann »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:23 am
Johann wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:25 am ... Anapana is a very useful way to arrive there, yet tp practice it requires leaving home and restrain..
Bhante, do you think anapanasati practice could still be somehow of benefit for a householder? Could a householder still find perhaps some understanding from it or perhaps develop sati from this practice or something else?
Sure, good householder, once observing the Brahmacariya (which does not depend on clothes) seriously, and less duties, it's possible. Also in times when done merits, have bases for the six reflections, or simply in times when getting aware of gross distress or greed. Even three deep breath give some release into access concentration.

Practicing Anapana means kayagatasati, leaving home, body, breath. Calming it down, letting go of "control". Itjs good to get "addicted" to pamojja, right joy, renouncing joy.

Path and fruits, insight, doesn't end with Kayagatasati but opens up the path. Once developed in body, mind can be developed right as well.

Sila -> abstain from sensual pleasures -> eating little -> keep sense-doors under control -> and here starts then the calming of the body-formations (building around, and controlling the sensual world), gross and then till the breath can be abound as well.

Now, right here, is the right time. Don't waste it and turn away to useful.
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