mjaviem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm
Flu causes contact(pain)...
I don't know what you understand by contact but in the Buddha's teachings, contact of the body type is clearly defined as the manifestation of the body, the manifestation of a tangible, and the manifestation of body-cognition, all three assembled and working together.
That's correct I suppose, English words change a little bit depending on translation. wikipedia quote:
SN 12.2 and SA 298 agree that the coming together of the object, the sense medium and the consciousness of that sense medium[note 19] is called contact. As such there are six corresponding forms of contact
mjaviem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
When there's vedanā someone wise enough can correlate it with contact. They can see clearly that when there's contact there's vedanā and without contact there's no vedanā.
Pain is not the contact, as I understand. Pain can mean suffering as when one beats their chest in despair or when hearing "He is in pain" or when saying "I'm in so much pain". Or it can mean an unpleasant sensation that one can experience and that leads to desire getting rid of this sensation. Besides, we can say contact is conditioned, unreliable, thus unsatisfactory or "pain" but pain doesn't seem to be defined as contact.
Pain is used usually to mean fisical sensation.
Is English your mother tonge? It causes me trouble to know what english word has been used for the pali word ...
If I look in a english dictionary common meaning agrees with the common word used in suttas translation:
pain
/peɪn/
noun
noun: pain; plural noun: pains
1.
highly unpleasant physical sensation caused by illness or injury.
"she's in great pain"
So the fisical sensation that causes you cutting your finger is pain, if it's looked in google yo can even found ajahn saying that, sometimes pain is used as translation for dukkha but not very common.
mjaviem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm
Vedana always causes craving. A person wise enough can correlate craving or desire with vedanā. They can clearly see that when there's vedanā there's desire or craving but when there's no vedanā, no craving. Upon enlightnment there's no more vedanā, only the cessation of vedanā can be discerned and the cessation of craving. Nibbana.
RobertoAnces wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm
... craving is suffering.
Yes, and without craving no suffering nor dissatisfaction.
No, IMO vedana does not always cause suffering.
It does not cause craving if you are anagami or arahant.
Certain types of pleasures are wholesome, for example reading a sutta can cause a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving. Doing dana causes a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving.
mjaviem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
As I usually say in this forum, it seems the very meaning of vedanā is often not clear. Vedanā is the experience one has from one situation in which they find. There are three types of experience: pleasant experience, unpleasant experience, and a clear and quite palpable experience although underlain by confusion where it's not clear if it's a pleasant experience or an unpleasant one. Those are the three types of vedanā, or experience, or sensation, or feeling, as you prefer.
Boredom experienced as unpleasant is the unpleasant type of vedana but if it is not clear whether this boredom is a pleasant or an unpleasant experience then it's the neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant type of vedanā.
And I doubt Ariyas under training understand such a confusing experience "as a blessing, peace maybe" as you say.
IMO for pathujana, neutral feeling is not just boredom, that's a mild word i used, neutral feeling not being understood is felt as death, can you imagine something worst that being in jail? Yes being in jail in an isolation cell (very little pleasant or unpleasant feeling felt.) an in an isolation cell you have contact with your mind dhammas.
It is very common than couples prefer drama and discussion better than boredom ... neutral feeling for pathujana is understood as death, even unpleasant feeling is preferred over neutral feeling ...
For ariya neutral feeling, being understood, is pleasant because neutral feeling don't causes craving, so not having to deal with the burdensome of craving, peace.
mjaviem wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm
...it is also impossible that there is no feeling...
It's quite possible. The Buddha taught "
This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling"
RobertoAnces wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm
... wisdom is developed by watching how suffering works, no by ignoring...
And they can see that when there's an experience, there's craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and thus suffering or disatissfaction. But without sensation or experience, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, thus no suffering.
IMO feeling is one of the aggregates, so is anicca and can't be own, int he sutta i quoted in my answer is clearly stated that arahant has feeling:
But when a mendicant is keen, not neglecting situational awareness, that astute person understands all feelings.
Completely understanding feelings, they’re without defilements in this very life. That knowledge master is firm in principle; when their body breaks up, they can’t be reckoned.
Can you quote a sutta were "
This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling" is said so we can see the context?
As I understand it sometime is said that arahant has no feelings, but the meaning is that he don't regard his feelings as me, mine, myself, they see it free from craving and conceit.
Yeah without contact no sukkha, but if you are awake and conscious there is always contact, you always see, hear, smell, touch ... something. And with contact there is always feeling ... my understanding is that the work to be done is in the level of avijja -> craving+conceit.
Trying to "get rid" of feeling is futile because is impossible, vedana is anatta.