How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Aha...now i know you haven't even perfected the precepts, let alone hear true dhamma.

How can I explain more than that for you to understand? It will just frustrate you in the end.

Instead one should analyze where one practice is. Not why you need to add more to make the dhamma more understandable for you. 😁

Good luck. Please don't propagate something that you don't know.

If one practice anapana, one will be able to stop the sankhara(s) here and now. Avijja will turn to Vijja now.

Even sanna will cease, Breathing will stop, physical body will transform. 😁
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asahi
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by asahi »

Anapanasati alone isnt suffice to end dukkha . The sutta stated following of anapanasati practice are four foundation of mindfulness and seven factors of awakening .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lal wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:22 pm Trying to explain profound Buddha Dhamma to some people is a waste of time.

The Buddha himself explained that to a Brahmin in the following sutta:

Khettūpama Sutta (SN 42.7): https://suttacentral.net/sn42.7/en/suja ... =latin#1.3
This post doesn’t substantiate your claims.
What is that connection? Explain briefly in your own words if you can—otherwise, there is no point in responding to either of you: Ceisiwr or joe.c.
I’ve already outlined my view in this thread.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Noble Sangha »

auto wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 4:22 pm just like seeing form what causes craving to arise . .
I'm not only saying this to you, but to anyone that holds such views. "just simply seeing forms causes craving to arise."

Have you and possibly others investigated whether this is true or not through real life experiences?

Imagine there's 10,000 dresses in front of you. Rather you're a female, male or both or whatever. Are you or others going to "crave" all those 10,000 dresses that you see?

Think of all the people you see on a busy street, do you "crave or care" about every single one of them?

Do I need to go into more examples for you and others? I don't think I need to right?
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.236/en/su ... ript=latin wrote:
“Mendicants, when there are hands, picking up and putting down are found.
“Hatthesu, bhikkhave, sati ādānanikkhepanaṁ paññāyati;
..
In the same way, when there’s an eye, pleasure and pain arise internally conditioned by eye contact.

by the way the term internally(ajjhattam), i believe refer to jhana
Neverminded explaining it to me, but good luck explaining to others that "internally" (ajjhattam) refers to jhana. The sutta you reference from, where does it even mention the word "jhana"? Or how is the sutta even related to jhana's ?

What makes you think that sutta is even about jhana's?
That is to move my mind away from or (discard) kama raga and (take in) as much kusala or dhamma thoughts as much as possible

"why elevate this elementary thing into practice and think anapanasati is about it too?"
Elementary thing? I'm sorry that you and possibly others can't even understand that this "elementary thing" in Buddhism. Is one of the MAIN ESSENCE OF BUDDHIST PRACTICE OR WHAT ONE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON. Not just discarding "kama raga" but also eventually rupa raga and arupa raga.
"Asking whether there even is such thing as lokuttara sila"
Okay then, let me ask you and others. Is there any difference between a puthujjana and an ariya sila?
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:29 am There is no need to explain the Buddha Teaching because it is clear and concise.
I agree that the Buddha teaching are clear and concise, if he was here personally or Arahants teaching. But now days initially, we have to rely on the sutta's and other's interpretations or teachings. From what I have seen and experience, if someone believes that all the details are in the sutta's and the Buddhism we're learning today is clear and concise. I can only wish them the best on their path.
"but so far i know the thoughts connected with renunciation is part of mundane(accompanied with defilements) 8 fold path"
so, the thought is lokkutara when it is formed(?) by an undefiled mind. So could it be any thought as long it is from undefiled mind?
I'm not even sure if you're trying to ask me a question or you're just putting question marks to your own comments that even you're not sure yourself. But if you are serious about understanding what I just quoted. I hope what I'm about to mention can help you and others in any way.

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujat ... latin#12.2

And what is right thought that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko?

Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
This is right thought that is accompanied by defilements.

Nekkhammasaṅkappo, abyāpādasaṅkappo, avihiṁsāsaṅkappo:
‘ayaṁ, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko’.

And what is right thought that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo?

It’s the thinking—the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.

Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro—
This is right thought that is noble"

The difference between the two "right thoughts" is that one is accompanied by lokuttara samma ditthi when one is an ariya or on the lokuttara 8 fold path or in Pali "ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ"

Compared the Pali words / sentences from the two "right thoughts" in the sutta and come to your own conclusions.

I'm not sure if you can see and understand the difference?

I didn't even want to use my time / effort / energy bringing up the Tapussasutta. But for your sake and others.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/suja ... =latin#7.2

Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too thought,
Mayhampi kho, ānanda, pubbeva sambodhā anabhisambuddhassa bodhisattasseva sato etadahosi:

‘Renunciation is good! Seclusion is good!’
‘sādhu nekkhammaṁ, sādhu paviveko’ti.

But my mind wasn’t eager for renunciation; it wasn’t confident, settled, and decided about it. I didn’t see it as peaceful.
Tassa mayhaṁ, ānanda, nekkhamme cittaṁ na pakkhandati nappasīdati na santiṭṭhati na vimuccati etaṁ santanti passato.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/suja ... latin#7.13

And so, after some time, I saw the drawbacks of sensual pleasures and cultivated that, and I realized the benefits of renunciation and developed that.
So kho ahaṁ, ānanda, aparena samayena kāmesu ādīnavaṁ disvā taṁ bahulamakāsiṁ, nekkhamme ānisaṁsaṁ adhigamma tamāseviṁ.

Then my mind was eager for renunciation; it was confident, settled, and decided about it. I saw it as peaceful.
Tassa mayhaṁ, ānanda, nekkhamme cittaṁ pakkhandati pasīdati santiṭṭhati vimuccati etaṁ santanti passato.

So do ariya's have thoughts of renunciation, good-will and harmlessness? If they do, then what's the difference between their thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness and ones accompanied by defilements?

I'm becoming lost for words on what to say here and I believe I should mostly bow out of this discussion . . . I believe I have said most of what was needed to answer OP's and some other's questions.

Going forward, if I don't reply please don't get upset or misunderstand. I'll reply if someone believes / comments on what I say / mention isn't consistent with dhamma teachings contained within the Pali Tipitaka. Or if I feel something mentioned / being mentioned can benefit you and others.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 am I agree that the Buddha teaching are clear and concise, if he was here personally or Arahants teaching. But now days initially, we have to rely on the sutta's and other's interpretations or teachings. From what I have seen and experience, if someone believes that all the details are in the sutta's and the Buddhism we're learning today is clear and concise. I can only wish them the best on their path.
No, you didn't agree. This is your double talk because there is a BUT. :)

Your mind is still moving due to your body is still moving. The true teaching will anchor your mind to not move.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Dhammapardon
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 am
"Asking whether there even is such thing as lokuttara sila"
Okay then, let me ask you and others. Is there any difference between a puthujjana and an ariya sila?
Perhaps ardency and diligence?
Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 am https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujat ... latin#12.2

And what is right thought that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko?

Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
This is right thought that is accompanied by defilements.

Nekkhammasaṅkappo, abyāpādasaṅkappo, avihiṁsāsaṅkappo:
‘ayaṁ, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo sāsavo puññabhāgiyo upadhivepakko’.

And what is right thought that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo?

It’s the thinking—the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.

Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro—
This is right thought that is noble"

I'm not sure if you can see and understand the difference?
If I may attempt and understanding..

Is the difference in the two types of right thought the understanding of anatta and defilements?
Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness.
This is right thought that is accompanied by defilements.
These are things a self does. The consciousness is engaged with the thinking and has lust for the fruits of good deeds and possibly aversion to bad deeds. Would this generate new kamma?
It’s the thinking—the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.
This sounds more like thinking disengaged from consciousness and understanding the drawbacks of defilement. Maybe no volition other than past kamma coming to fruition? No new kamma?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Lal
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

Please get back to the topic. What is the connection between Ānapānasati and Paticca Samuppāda?
- This is what happens in these forums. People write a lot without any relevance to the subject being discussed.

The following is my summary of Ānapānasati and its connection to Paticca Samuppāda.
- I initially wrote: "This information is only for the wise—no need to comment."
- But several commented rejecting my summary, WITHOUT giving their explanation.

Ānapāna: "Āna" or "taking in" and "Āpāna" for "discarding."

Level 1: For those who have no understanding of Buddha Dhamma: Ānapānasati means focusing the mind on "breathing in and out." Of course, that is a crude form of "meditation" for calming the mind. It cannot cleanse a mind—no connection to Paticca Samuppāda.

Level 2: Ānapānasati can be done with "Āna" or "taking good morals and good habits in," and "Āpāna" or "discard bad morals and bad habits."
- This step is necessary to be able to comprehend the Deeper Buddha Dhamma (Four Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppāda, and Tilakkhana) leading to Nibbāna.

Level 3: Noble version of Ānapānasati to be practiced to get to Nibbāna, after comprehending the Four Noble Truths, Paticca Samuppāda, and Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta. ) Of course, that requires hearing the correct versions of those from someone who has understood them.
- In this version, "Āna" or "taking in" is the Kusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda that leads to Nibbāna. " Āpāna" or "to discard" is the Akusala-mula Paticca Samuppāda that sustains the rebirth process (Samsāra).

If you don't know, it does not serve any purpose to say, "that is nonsense," or write a lot without stating your position ON THE TOPIC. That is not how you discuss a given topic.
What part did you not understand? Which statement is not correct from above or the added section below on MN 118?
Quote that part and explain why it is wrong. The other option is to ask further questions on the part you did not understand, so quote that section and ask for clarification.
- Otherwise, you are wasting other people's time by making useless comments.

Further Information

The Buddha discussed the Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā in the “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118.)” (https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujat ... ript=latin)
- Of course, the translation there (starting with the title) is INCORRECT because it does not reconcile with most of the verses.

Let me make two quotes from the sutta that should be enough to make the case.

Ānāpānassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti.”

Translation:Ānāpānasati (Bhāvanā), when developed and cultivated, fulfills the four sections of the satipaṭṭhāna (Bhāvanā.) Again, how can mindfully breathing in and out fulfill Satipaṭṭhāna?

AND

Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṁ vadāmi.

Translation: “I do not teach this Ānāpānasati (Bhāvanā) to those who do not have (Sammā) sati.” Here "muṭṭhassatissa" refers to someone who does not have Sammā Sati cultivated via Sammā Diṭṭhi.
- Anyone who has not understood the Four Noble Truths/Paṭicca Samuppāda/Tilakkhana would not have Sammā Diṭṭhi or Sammā Sati.
- On the other hand, anyone can concentrate on "breathing in and out." Yogis did that even before the time of the Buddha. That can even lead to jhana if one can avoid sensual pleasures. However, that does not lead to Nibbana, the end of suffering in the rebirth process.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Lal wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:13 am
Please stop, there is no 3 level. It is your imagination or papanca.

There is only 1 samma sati/samma samadhi due to samma vayama.

The outsider doesn’t even consider to practice anapanasati that Buddha thought.

Whatever level 2 that you said, There is no requirement to practice Anapana to understand 4NT. It is your imagination as well.

Look at MN 56 and many others. There is no teaching about Anapana first to understand 4NT. So it is your mind created and add to it.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Lal
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

A I wrote earlier:
Trying to explain profound Buddha Dhamma to some people is a waste of time.

The Buddha himself explained that to a Brahmin in the following sutta:

Khettūpama Sutta (SN 42.7): https://suttacentral.net/sn42.7/en/suja ... =latin#1.3

Some people don't seem to understand the content in that sutta too. They are the same ones that the Buddha compared to "poor fields" that a farmer would not want to plant seeds. Read about the three types of people the Buddha compared to three types of fields in the sutta.
- Those who understand a concept quickly (when explained) are like "excellent fields" to plant on. Efforts on them yield the best results.
- There is a second-best category of people where it takes an effort to explain things. It is worthwhile to spend time on them too.
- It is almost impossible to explain to those in the third category. The Buddha sometimes called them "pada parama." They never veer off from their deeply-embedded wrong views, no matter what. Those also keep asking, "where is the sutta that says exactly that?" even for simple concepts that we can deduce. Not everything can be written a sutta. A Buddha comes to the world to explain concepts we cannot figure out ourselves.

My posts are for those in the first and second categories. But, as the Buddha stated, one in the third category might at least pick up a few things. Anyway, I have said enough for now. I may post a longer one later to benefit those in the first two categories.
Last edited by Lal on Sun Jan 08, 2023 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Lal wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:38 pm A I wrote earlier:
Trying to explain profound Buddha Dhamma to some people is a waste of time.

The Buddha himself explained that to a Brahmin in the following sutta:

Khettūpama Sutta (SN 42.7): https://suttacentral.net/sn42.7/en/suja ... =latin#1.3
When you can’t explain your papanca you fall back on can’t explain further. LOL.
you wrote: Some people don't seem to understand the content in that sutta too. They are the same ones that the Buddha compared to "poor fields" that a farmer would not want to plant seeds. Read about the three fields in the sutta.
- Those who understand a concept when explained quickly are like "excellent fields" to plant on.
- There is a second-best category of people where it takes an effort to explain things.
- It is almost impossible to explain to those in the third category. The Buddha sometimes called them "pada parama." They never veer off from their deeply-embedded wrong views, no matter what. Those also keep asking, "where is the sutta that says exactly that?" Not everything can be written a sutta. A Buddha comes to the world to explain concepts we cannot figure out ourselves.
So Buddha let you to explain it now? This is an absurd statement. LOL. The teaching is complete, when Buddha has taught for 45 years till end of the body. Even he said it on DN 29.

Why does he needs others like you to explain, it is just totally weird. Even he mentioned future danger, never to trust who doesn’t have developed faculties try to explain things in future.
you wrote: My posts are for those in the first and second categories. But, as the Buddha stated, one in the third category might at least pick up a few things. Anyway, I have said enough for now. I may post a longer one later to benefit those in the first two categories.
According to Buddha, A fool can’t even distinguish a fool or wise, how can you know 1st and 2nd categories?

So whatever you said doesn’t have any proof, it is just a hollow statement. Look nice, but no practical use.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by auto »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 am I'm not only saying this to you, but to anyone that holds such views. "just simply seeing forms causes craving to arise."
Form what causes craving. Some form causes dispassion.
Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 am Neverminded explaining it to me, but good luck explaining to others that "internally" (ajjhattam) refers to jhana. The sutta you reference from, where does it even mention the word "jhana"? Or how is the sutta even related to jhana's ?
Jhana is ajjhatta, internal. Can read it from commentaries.
and from this sutta you can assume it too,
https://suttacentral.net/mn138/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And how is their consciousness stuck internally?
Kathañcāvuso, ajjhattaṁ saṇṭhitanti vuccati?
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures,..
i didn't mean the entire sutta but this segment,
"In the same way, when there’s an eye, pleasure and pain arise internally conditioned by eye contact."
How it relates to jhana is that the pleasure and pain what is given up in 4th jhana is that same pleasure and pain mentioned above.
Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:56 amElementary thing? I'm sorry that you and possibly others can't even understand that this "elementary thing" in Buddhism. Is one of the MAIN ESSENCE OF BUDDHIST PRACTICE OR WHAT ONE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON. Not just discarding "kama raga" but also eventually rupa raga and arupa raga.
giving up sensual pleasure is elementary thing, call it main essence if you want.
RobertoAnces
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:28 am [...]

Roberto, I'm going to finish up what I would like to mention to you as of this time. I mentioned at the beginning that I hope you'll see my intention in the end.

For your consideration, I believe it might be beneficial at times for us to choose our words more carefully. Words like "noob" can be displeasing to some and can give off the wrong idea or impression which others can interpret things the wrong way. Maybe can use words like novice, new on the path, etc . . . We should try to strive hard to avoid getting others upset as much as we can, but sometimes it just happens and it is the way it is. I'm also aware that English is not your first language, just trying to help out.

I'm not sure how seriously others take what you mentioned about anapanasati, but if you're were a renown teacher or have many followers and you voice that anapanasati is not for puthujjana's. I believe that can open up a can of worms and possibly could dispute some of the current teachings, views and practices that we have in Buddhism today. I'm not sure if you care or aware about the possible consequences for holding such views and voicing that anapanasati is not for puthujjana's?

Your explanation / reasoning is not bad for explaining how anapanasati is not for puthujjana's, but in my view it would not be enough convincing and you even mentioned your self "it will not convince anyone".

But in the end you can sigh a relief because I'm actually here to help you to be more convincing to others and most importantly to yourself. You could say that I'm here to support what you mentioned about anapanasati is not for puthujjana's. You brought up a sutta that I didn't know about and it helped me to confirm some things that's related to what's being brought up. In return at a later time (in another thread and post), I'll share these findings with you and others. I'm going to help further explain and provide findings in the sutta's (EVIDENCE) that will support what you stated / believe in. When you see what will be disclosed I believe it will give you solid evidence and help to eliminate any uncertainties that you might have based on what you stated or believe in that anapanasati is not for puthujjana's.
Hello, well I just talk about my opinion and only when I think it can help (but maybe it may confuse people), so all this is just my opinion:

I was not aware that the word noob had negative connotations, for me it is simply synonymous with "newcomer, rookie" and I was referring to someone who is much more inexperienced than a puthujjana who may have years of Buddhism behind him, I was referring to someone who hardly knows what is Buddhism, He has heard or seen in a movie that sitting down to meditate one can reach nibbana and with that idea he approaches Buddhism (so by noob I was talking about myself at the beginning).

My intention was precisely not to offend the patujjenas who without being ariya are not newcomers and don't have a so naive view of the Dhamma, that's why I used the word noob instead of patujjenas.

In any case, if someone has been offended, I take this opportunity to apologize, it was not my intention to offend anyone.


The can is already opened, and it is bigger than if anapanassati is for pathujjanas or not, is about what is samadhi, some ajahn have said it in a veiled way, others clearly and of course it has felt very bad.

Ajahn Chah still, flowing water:

https://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Still_Flowing_Water1.php .

In DW you have this link with a book if you want to now what's the main problem:

viewtopic.php?t=41855

Anapanasati being for ariya or not, not very important compared to the issue of samadhi, maybe we could settle it simply by saying that although a pathujjana cannot reach samma samadhi, practicing it is of some value to him, I would add that although it may be of some use, there are other things that must be developed before samma samadhi in which time/effort would be better invested, but everyone does what they want with their time.

I put sutta posted by @auto that I did not know when I wrote my post that I think can provide some clarity:
RobertoAnces wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:59 am
auto wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:32 pm [...]
mn117 says the same thing about right view what is factor of the path,
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:..—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.
This is called right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.
According to the dictionary, the arhant is not hearer. It must be widespread understanding then. And first search told that the arhant is not hearer because he has no grasping.
But if to read the sutta it tells both has no grasping and said what is then the difference then the buddha explained.
Very clear sutta thanks :anjali: , so IMO no right view implies no rigth samadhi, no sammasamadhi/jhana. Sammasamadhi/jhana can't be needed for right view because right view came first:
MN 117 wrote: [...]
“And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion with its vital conditions and also with its prerequisites.
[...]
In this context, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? Right view gives rise to right thought. Right thought gives rise to right speech. Right speech gives rise to right action. Right action gives rise to right livelihood. Right livelihood gives rise to right effort. Right effort gives rise to right mindfulness. Right mindfulness gives rise to right immersion. Right immersion gives rise to right knowledge. Right knowledge gives rise to right freedom. So the trainee has eight factors, while the perfected one has ten factors. And here too, the eradication of many bad, unskillful qualities is fully developed due to right knowledge.
[...]
In any case, samadhi is part of the eightfold noble path and must be developed, but it's not possible to achieve sammasamadhi without first having the right view.

In another post I said that IMO anapanasati sutta cannot be practiced without the right view because a pathujana cannot do what the sutta asks to do, they cannot follow the instructions, well this sutta suports the idea, no samma samadhi without right view. Recommending a beginner to do anapanasati is perhaps of some value but not much, perhaps time would be better spent otherwise, maybe gradual training MN 107.

I see that jhana it is a sensitive subject in the forum, better not to insist much more, :namaste:
So if we consider that samma samadhi is obtained with anapanasati (among others), or is the objective of anapanasati, and Buddha said that there is no samma samadhi without samma ditthi, then this supports that this suta is not for pathujjanas.

If that's the case, this ajahn is opening the can of worms, I guess it's no surprise being a disciple of Ajahn Chah, another famous Ajahn who opened a bigger can of worms earlier, in a veiled way, and with a lot of tact so as not to hurt sensibilities.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:22 pm [...]


It seems that he agree with us, the level of samadhi necessary for stream-entry is very low, just a clear mind and being calm, sila and knowledge are more important. (mindfulness and some degree of undertanding of anatta too, but in my opinion people overdo with anatta, for stream entering be able to see processes of body and mind as impersonal is more than enough)
[...]
Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 12:28 am [...]

One of the main points of dhamma practice is to have the meditation object as "sati, samadhi" or dominate our mind and not only when nothing else is happening in our mind. In order words, we try to make the meditation object happen in our minds as much as possible.
Anapannasati is still just another form of meditation, an ariya can enter the first jhana in any meditation he does or even without meditating.
only ariya can enter jhana at will
[...]
I just finished with my main idea since the post comes out very long.

No, IMO the aim of dhamma practice is not to dominate the mind, the mind cannot be dominated, the body cannot be mastered. Much less maintain concentration on an object.

Samma Samadhi is a high state of mind in which there is peace, happiness and tranquility, but this is not the goal either, nor is it nibbana, it is a tool to develop the Wisdom that will lead you to nibbana.

Our views shape the way we meditate, if we do not have the right view we cannot meditate correctly because we do not know what we are doing, how to do it, nor do we know where we want to go/obtain.

So tell me what you understand by nibbana, what do you understand by suffering, how do you think suffering is ceased ... and I'll tell you how you meditate. And if what we think is correct (right view), our meditation will be correct, and a correct meditation leads to a correct samadhi, and a correct samadhi leads to a correct liberation.



:namaste:
Lal
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

Ānāpānasati – Overview

Evidence from the Tipiṭaka shows that Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is not breath mediation. The former can lead to Nibbāna, while the latter cannot.

Introduction

1. In the series on “Elephants in the Room,” (https://puredhamma.net/elephants-in-the-room/), I discuss many blatant misinterpretations of the Tipiṭaka under three categories: “Word-for-Word Translation of the Tipiṭaka,” “Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā,” and “Tilakkhana.”

- I call these “Elephants in the Room” for the following reason. I have tried to point out many contradictions in current English translations of the Tipiṭaka. Those who have diligently followed this website are aware of these issues.
- However, I encountered strong opposition when I pointed out these issues at a well-known discussion forum. Anicca as impermanence and Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā as “breath meditation” seem to be ingrained into the minds of many people. It is difficult for them to “remove the dark glasses” and “see the truth.”

2. Some say, “I don’t know enough Pāli to determine who has the correct interpretations, you or those well-established teachers.” However, knowledge of Pāli is not necessary to see many contradictions.

- For example, see “Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda.” (https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... samuppada/) Even a child should be able to see such apparent contradictions!
- I understand that getting rid of firmly-embedded wrong views is not easy, especially when the current “Theravada establishment” is behind such interpretations. I will do what I can to the best of my ability. (Of course, I learned these interpretations from the late Waharaka Thero.)
- It is a relief to see that some people have understood, as I can see from the comments in our discussion forum.

First Elephant in the Room – Word-for-Word Translation of the Tipiṭaka

3. I have already posted under the “Word-for-Word Translation of the Tipiṭaka” category and will post more later.

- In this first post on “Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā,” I will lay out a map for future posts. I have divided this subsection into several categories, as indicated below.
- The primary sutta on Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118).” (https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujat ... ript=latin) I will be discussing the main verses of this sutta in future posts. Before that, I need to provide some background, as laid out below. Note that in Pāli, the two words Ānapāna and sati combine as “Ānāpānassati.” Thus, you may see both Ānāpānasati and Ānāpānassati.
- I will use the English translation in the above link for comparison. I chose this particular translation because it has the English and Pāli verses side-by-side, so it is easy for anyone to compare with my translation of a specific verse. Of course, most current English translations are similarly incorrect; for example, “Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing (MN 118.).”https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Second Elephant in the Room – Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is Not Breath Meditation

4. The point that I will be making is the following. “Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā” is NOT “Mindful of Breathing.” Breath meditation is NOT a Buddhist meditation. Hindus practice breath meditation. See "Pranayama."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

- Some people try to cheat by saying Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is the first step as a Samatha Bhāvanā, and then one needs to do “insight meditation.” However, I will present evidence from many suttas to show that Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā, by itself, is all one needs to attain Arahanthood. See #8 below.
- Furthermore, one CAN NOT do the CORRECT insight mediation if one does not even understand that Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā is not breath meditation!
- The Buddha has clearly stated in the Ānāpānasati Sutta that if one completes the steps in Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā, one will be fulfilling the steps in the Satipatthana Bhāvanā. Satipatthana Bhāvanā discusses the same steps in greater detail.
- An Introduction to Ānāpānasati is in posts #5 through #8 in “Bhāvanā (Meditation).” https://puredhamma.net/bhavana-meditation/The following is an overview of topics in posts in the “Elephant in the Room 3 – Ānāpānasati“ subsection. https://puredhamma.net/elephants-in-the ... apanasati/

Breath Not Mentioned in Ānapāna Vagga in Saṁyutta Nikāya

5. There is a small collection of suttas in the Ānapāna Vagga of Saṁyutta Nikāya BEFORE the section on Ānāpānasati. That is to give an idea of what is involved in Ānapāna, which comes from “Āna” + “āpāna,” where two words mean “taking in (kusala)” and “discarding (akusala or defilements).”

- That section in the Ānapāna Vagga has several suttas starting with the “Aṭṭhikamahapphala Sutta (SN 46.57)” (https://suttacentral.net/sn46.57/en/suj ... ript=latin) and ending with the “Ānāpāna Sutta (SN 46.66).”https://suttacentral.net/sn46.66/en/suj ... ript=latin
- You can read the English translations in the above links and see that the word “breath” is NOT there! Of course, the INCORRECT English translation of “Ānāpānassati” as “mindfulness of breathing” in SN 46.66 does not mean the word “breathing” is mentioned in that sutta! That INCORRECT translation is in the Sutta Central translation in the above link. (Note: I usually provide the “side by side” Pāli and English translations from Sutta Central. That does NOT mean I agree with their translation. One should always be cautious about the INCORRECT translation of many words in Sutta Central translations).
- Instead, those suttas briefly describe some KEY CONCEPTS that one needs to understand to correctly “take in “and “discard” (Ānapāna) to cultivate Ānapāna Sati.

6. For example, the first sutta explains that one needs to understand how to cultivate “aṭṭhika saññā.” That is the “anicca or unfruitful” nature of this world. It is amusing to see that the English translation in the first link above translates “aṭṭhika saññā” as “perception of a skeleton”!

- Word-by-word translations can lead to such ridiculous statements.
- The word “aṭṭhi” can mean “bones.” But the correct meaning in this context is not that, as I will explain later.
- Other suttas in that series briefly mention several types of meditations in Satipaṭṭhāna, and the series ends with “Ānāpāna Sutta (SN 46.66)” which briefly states, “Bhikkhus when Ānāpānasati is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial..”

Is a Bhikkhu a “Begger”?

7. Another common problem with Sutta Central translations is that the translator translates “bhikkhu” as “mendicant” all the time.

- See the definition of a “mendicant: “mendicant definition.”https://www.google.com/search?q=mendica ... nt=gws-wiz A bhikkhu is NOT a “begger.” It is an insult to call a bhikkhu a “begger”!
- In some dictionaries, a second definition is “often capitalized: a member of a religious order (such as the Franciscans) combining monastic life and outside religious activity and originally owning neither personal nor community property.” See “mendicant.” But why use obscure definitions? Furthermore, there is no “capitalization” in Sutta Central translations (mostly mendicant, not Mendicant.)
- To understand the term “bhikkhu,” read the suttas in “11 results for bhikkhusutta.”https://suttacentral.net/search?query=bhikkhusutta
- The easiest solution regarding words like bhikkhu, anicca, and anatta is to use the same Pāli word, as done in the Sinhala language. There are no single words for such Pāli words in any language!

Ānapāna Saṁyutta Says Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā — by Itself — Leads to Arahanthood

8. There are twenty suttas in the Ānapāna Saṁyutta of Saṁyutta Nikāya DIRECTLY stating that Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā — by itself — can lead to Arahanthood.

- The series starts with the “Ekadhamma Sutta (SN 54.1).”https://suttacentral.net/sn54.1/en/suja ... ript=latin Ekadhamma means “one dhamma,” implying that this is all one needs to get to Arahanthood.
- The series ends with a short sutta stating that Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā will lead to the removal of all saṁyojana, anusaya, and āsava. There is no question that it leads to Nibbāna! See, “Āsavakkhaya Sutta (SN 54.20).”https://suttacentral.net/sn54.20/en/suj ... ript=latin
- Thus, this series of suttas provides enough evidence by itself.
- Incredibly, the translator in the link (and other “well-known” teachers) did not realize this while they did these translations. As I keep saying, sutta translation has become a mindless, mechanical process. It is a dangerous practice. Many suttas with deeper meanings require detailed explanations. See, “Sutta Interpretation – Uddēsa, Niddēsa, Paṭiniddēsa.”https://puredhamma.net/sutta-interpreta ... tiniddesa/

Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118)

9. The Buddha discussed the Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā in the “Ānāpānassati Sutta (MN 118.).”https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujat ... ript=latin Let me make two quotes from the sutta that should be enough to make the case.

Ānāpānassati, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā cattāro satipaṭṭhāne paripūreti.
Translation: Ānāpānasati (Bhāvanā), when developed and cultivated, fulfills the four sections of the satipaṭṭhāna (Bhāvanā.)

Nāhaṁ, bhikkhave, muṭṭhassatissa asampajānassa ānāpānassatiṁ vadāmi.”
Translation: “I do not teach this Ānāpānasati (Bhāvanā) to those who do not have (sammā) sati.”
- Anyone who has not understood the Four Noble Truths/Paṭicca Samuppāda/Tilakkhana would not have sammā sati. P.S. See, for example, "Mālukyaputta Sutta (SN 35.95)" at the marker I have linked to: https://suttacentral.net/sn35.95/en/suj ... latin#12.1 where it says: "‘Rūpaṁ disvā sati muṭṭhā" OR "mindfulness is lost upon seeing an attractive sight (for those who don't have Sammā Sati)." That can happen with all six senses, as the sutta explains below.

The English translation in the above link translates that Pāli verse as: “There is no development of mindfulness of breathing for someone who is unmindful and lacks awareness, I say.”

- As I have explained, it is not about “breathing in and out.” Any person should be able to “mindfully breathe in and out”! The translator does not understand “sati” is that “Sammā Sati.” Only a Noble Person at or above the Sotapanna stage has Sammā Sati.

Assāsa/Passāsa in Ānāpānasati Is not About the Breath but Kusala/Akusala

10. How did those translators miss the above critical points? I am not quite sure. I cannot even imagine how ALL OF THEM missed such crucial verses.

- As you can see, the English translations in the above links do not contradict my statements. But from their manner of writing, it is clear that they did not grasp the meanings.
- They must have been intent on cranking out as many suttas as possible without really paying attention to check self-consistency.
- One possibility is the following. No one in recent years had understood the deeper meanings of assāsa and passāsa (in the context of cultivating the Eightfold Noble Path.) So, they mechanically used the ordinary meanings of inhaling and exhaling.
- There is no question that even breath meditation can lead to a calm mind. Yet, that will NOT lead to rāgakkhaya, dosakkhaya, mohakkhaya (i.e., Nibbāna.)

11. One word with two or more meanings (depending on the context) is common in all languages.

- Let us consider a simple example in English. “Turn right at the next junction” and “You are right” are perfectly correct statements. The word “right” has very different meanings in the two contexts.
- These translators of the Tipiṭaka suttas have not understood the meanings of assāsa and passāsa in cultivating the Eightfold Noble Path.

Ānāpānassatikathā – Detailed Explanation in Paṭisambhidāmagga

12. There is a detailed explanation of Ānāpānasati Bhāvanā in the Tipitaka commentary Paṭisambhidāmagga: “1.3. Ānāpānassatikathā.”https://suttacentral.net/ps1.3/pli/ms?l ... ript=latin

- One can write a book translating this detailed explanation!

Mundane Version of Ānāpānasati

13. However, anyone can do the “mundane version” of Ānāpānasati and complete the mundane eightfold path described in the “Mahācattārīsaka Sutta (MN 117).” (https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujat ... =latin#6.2) It describes two versions of the first five steps in the Eightfold Path: mundane and Noble. I have linked to the start of the description of the two versions of Sammā Diṭṭhi at marker 6.2. Two versions of the following four steps are at markers 12.2, 18.2, 24.2, and 30.2. Those then lead to DIFFERENT states of Sammā Samādhi in the two paths. (Also note that this sutta comes just before the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118.))

- The “mundane version” of Ānāpānasati includes the following: Taking in good morals and cultivating “good gati, “discarding bad gati, learning (taking in) correct teachings of the Buddha, discarding wrong views by contemplating those teachings and related material (like rebirth accounts, Out-Of-Body experiences, Near- Death Experiences), etc.
- That will enable one to comprehend the Noble Truths/Paṭicca samuppāda/Tilakkhana and start on the lokuttara (Noble) Path and practice the Ānāpānasati described in the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118.)

Summary

14. I hope I have given enough information to make the case without writing another post.

- But I will provide further details, even if not in the same order as above. Some sections above do not need further clarification.
- All posts on Ānāpānasati at “Elephant in the Room 3 – Ānāpānasati.“https://puredhamma.net/elephants-in-the ... apanasati/
Last edited by Lal on Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Joe.c
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Joe.c »

Waste of time for the above. All papanca.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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SDC
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by SDC »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:51 pm Waste of time for the above. All papanca.
Your “this is wrong” posts are getting old, Joe. If you’re not energetic enough to explain why you disagree with something, you should probably stop participating.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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