How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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mjaviem
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... that you have the flu, it causes you a mild persistent suffering...
... Other example, girlfriend left me, causes me suffering...
Flu and girlfriend breaking up dont "cause" suffering. Wanting the symptons to go away, not being content with the way things are, is what causes suffering.
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... his mind is absorbed in the game... there is no suffering...
... distract myself and I avoid this suffering, if I don't look it doesn't exist.
...
Absortion in a game and distraction with friends is the ordinary person's way to avoid contact and desiring things to be different. As soon as the game is over and partying ends contact happens again, an unpleasant experience happens again, and desire for a change comes back.
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... here is the feeling (I don't like it)...
"I don't like it" is not the feeling. "I don't like it" is attachment and becoming in any case.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Lal wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:58 pm
So Buddha didn't talk about how to escape suffering in this life as well as in the next ones?
- Yes. the mental suffering will reduce with each stage of magga phala and completely removed by the Arahant stage.
- But the physical sufferings are due to previous kamma, and they can bring vipaka until death as an Arahant. Remember that Ven. Moggallana was beaten to death. But Ven. Moggallana became free of all suffering upon his death.
. since my objective is to reach sotapanna that is what worries me and what I focus my efforts on.
What do you expect to achieve with the Sotapanna stage?
- Is it to be free of physical/mental pain in this life?
- Or is to be free of suffering in future lives?
As far as I know suffering is going to remain until anagami, anagami already has no craving, so no suffering, but still some conceit. Anyway as he doesn't have craving he is non-returner, no craving, no rebirth.

It is so important for me to reach sotapanna because Buddha told us that once you are sotapanna the amount of suffering you have left is limited, or in other words at most 7 rebirths remaining. So sotapanna is the ticket out of samsara and a lot less suffering in this life.

If you take seriously what Buddha said, it is a good motivation to practice all day and try to reach sotapanna, it wouldn't be smart to waste this opportunity to become sotapanna and have 1,10,100,1000 ... who knows how many lifes ahead of you until you are reborn as a human again and can listen to the dhamma again.

:namaste:
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:03 am
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:02 pm It took Buddha lots of suttas to explain suffering I'm not going to do it in a paragraph.
Oh, so when the Buddha spoke that 1st noble truth in that 1st sermon you are saying nobody understood what he was talking about until the Buddha finished lots of "suttas"?
What I am saying is that if you really understand to its ultimate consequences what suffering means, you are an arahant.

Well, the sutta on the 4 noble truths was enough for those who already had little dust in their eyes, I have read a million suttas and I still don't understand what suffering means for the Buddha, and the proof that I don't understand it is I'm not arahant.

If you tell me that understanding what is suffering is reading and memorizing the four noble truths, easy to understand then. Or maybe just reading the definition on the dictionary is enough for understanding suffering.

:namaste:
Last edited by RobertoAnces on Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:09 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... that you have the flu, it causes you a mild persistent suffering...
... Other example, girlfriend left me, causes me suffering...
Flu and girlfriend breaking up dont "cause" suffering. Wanting the symptons to go away, not being content with the way things are, is what causes suffering.
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... his mind is absorbed in the game... there is no suffering...
... distract myself and I avoid this suffering, if I don't look it doesn't exist.
...
Absortion in a game and distraction with friends is the ordinary person's way to avoid contact and desiring things to be different. As soon as the game is over and partying ends contact happens again, an unpleasant experience happens again, and desire for a change comes back.
RobertoAnces wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am ... here is the feeling (I don't like it)...
"I don't like it" is not the feeling. "I don't like it" is attachment and becoming in any case.
Flu causes contact(pain), pain causes feeling, feeling may cause craving (if you're not enlightened), craving is suffering.
Contact is a condition for feeling. Feeling is a condition for craving. This is the origin of suffering.
There are only 3 types of feeling:
SN 36.3 wrote:“Mendicants, there are these three feelings. What three?

Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling.

The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling.

When a mendicant has given up these underlying tendencies, they’re called a mendicant without underlying tendencies, who sees rightly, has cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit has made an end of suffering.

When you feel pleasure without understanding feeling, the underlying tendency to greed is there, if you don’t see the escape.

When you feel pain without understanding feeling, the underlying tendency to repulsion is there, if you don’t see the escape.

As for that peaceful, neutral feeling: he of vast wisdom has taught that if you relish it, you’re still not released from suffering.

But when a mendicant is keen, not neglecting situational awareness, that astute person understands all feelings.

Completely understanding feelings, they’re without defilements in this very life. That knowledge master is firm in principle; when their body breaks up, they can’t be reckoned.
flu causes unpleasant feeling (I don't like it).
Pleasant feeling (I like it).
Neutral feeling (the most difficult to understand, felt as bad for pathujana, boredom maybe, and as a blessing for ariya, peace maybe)

I never said that the goal was for the flu symptoms to go away, that is impossible, it is also impossible that there is no feeling, the only thing that is possible is that there is no craving and therefore there is no suffering, and the way to cease craving is wisdom, and wisdom is developed by watching how suffering works, no by ignoring. If i didn't explain myself correctly:
What do you think would happen if you attend wisely, in an unattached way, here is the melancholy (contact), here is the feeling (I don't like it), here is the craving (suffering) and does nothing, just attends as sariputa said:
Sorry :namaste:
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm Flu causes contact(pain)...
I don't know what you understand by contact but in the Buddha's teachings, contact of the body type is clearly defined as the manifestation of the body, the manifestation of a tangible, and the manifestation of body-cognition, all three assembled and working together.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... pain causes feeling...
When there's vedanā someone wise enough can correlate it with contact. They can see clearly that when there's contact there's vedanā and without contact there's no vedanā.

Pain is not the contact, as I understand. Pain can mean suffering as when one beats their chest in despair or when hearing "He is in pain" or when saying "I'm in so much pain". Or it can mean an unpleasant sensation that one can experience and that leads to desire getting rid of this sensation. Besides, we can say contact is conditioned, unreliable, thus unsatisfactory or "pain" but pain doesn't seem to be defined as contact.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... feeling may cause craving (if you're not enlightened)...
Vedana always causes craving. A person wise enough can correlate craving or desire with vedanā. They can clearly see that when there's vedanā there's desire or craving but when there's no vedanā, no craving. Upon enlightnment there's no more vedanā, only the cessation of vedanā can be discerned and the cessation of craving. Nibbana.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... craving is suffering.
Yes, and without craving no suffering nor dissatisfaction.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... unpleasant feeling (I don't like it).
Pleasant feeling (I like it).
Neutral feeling (the most difficult to understand, felt as bad for pathujana, boredom maybe, and as a blessing for ariya, peace maybe)
...
As I usually say in this forum, it seems the very meaning of vedanā is often not clear. Vedanā is the experience one has from one situation in which they find. There are three types of experience: pleasant experience, unpleasant experience, and a clear and quite palpable experience although underlain by confusion where it's not clear if it's a pleasant experience or an unpleasant one. Those are the three types of vedanā, or experience, or sensation, or feeling, as you prefer.

Boredom experienced as unpleasant is the unpleasant type of vedana but if it is not clear whether this boredom is a pleasant or an unpleasant experience then it's the neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant type of vedanā.

And I doubt Ariyas under training understand such a confusing experience "as a blessing, peace maybe" as you say.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ...it is also impossible that there is no feeling...
It's quite possible. The Buddha taught "This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling"
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... wisdom is developed by watching how suffering works, no by ignoring...
And they can see that when there's an experience, there's craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and thus suffering or disatissfaction. But without sensation or experience, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, thus no suffering.
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Lal »

RobertoAnces:
As far as I know suffering is going to remain until anagami, anagami already has no craving, so no suffering, .
Suffering in the rebirth process has four main levels: (i) the possibility of suffering in the four lowest realms (apayas) is removed when one attains the Sotapanna stage of Nibbana, i.e., they will never be born in an apaya, (ii) the following seven realms are the human realm and the six Deva realms; human realm has both suffering and sensual pleasures, and in Deva realms, there is less suffering. An Anagami will not be born in any of those 11 realms in the future. (iii) Next, there are 16 rupavacara Brahma realms where those who attain the first four jhana are reborn. (iv) the four arupavacara Brahma realms are where those who cultivate the highest four jhana are reborn.

In the 20 Brahma realms, Brahmas do not have physical bodies, so there is no physical suffering. Yet, unless those Brahmas had attained a magga phala (at least the Sotapanna stage), they return to the human realm at the end of that lifetime and can be reborn in the apayas too.
- That is why there is no point in cultivating anariya jhana. They do not lead to the end of suffering in the rebirth process.

All of us had been repeatedly born in most of the 31 realms in the past. But most rebirths had been in the apayas. The Buddha stated that “apayas are like home for living beings; they may go out to other realms occasionally, but always come back to the apayas.” It is a blessing that we cannot recall our past lives other than recent human lives (some children can recall their previous human life, but those memories fade away as they grow old).

That is also why one needs to attain at least the Sotapanna stage.
- See "The Thirty-one Planes of Existence" for a summary of the 31 realms: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by RobertoAnces »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm Flu causes contact(pain)...
I don't know what you understand by contact but in the Buddha's teachings, contact of the body type is clearly defined as the manifestation of the body, the manifestation of a tangible, and the manifestation of body-cognition, all three assembled and working together.
That's correct I suppose, English words change a little bit depending on translation. wikipedia quote:
SN 12.2 and SA 298 agree that the coming together of the object, the sense medium and the consciousness of that sense medium[note 19] is called contact. As such there are six corresponding forms of contact
mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
When there's vedanā someone wise enough can correlate it with contact. They can see clearly that when there's contact there's vedanā and without contact there's no vedanā.

Pain is not the contact, as I understand. Pain can mean suffering as when one beats their chest in despair or when hearing "He is in pain" or when saying "I'm in so much pain". Or it can mean an unpleasant sensation that one can experience and that leads to desire getting rid of this sensation. Besides, we can say contact is conditioned, unreliable, thus unsatisfactory or "pain" but pain doesn't seem to be defined as contact.
Pain is used usually to mean fisical sensation.

Is English your mother tonge? It causes me trouble to know what english word has been used for the pali word ...

If I look in a english dictionary common meaning agrees with the common word used in suttas translation:
pain
/peɪn/
noun
noun: pain; plural noun: pains

1.
highly unpleasant physical sensation caused by illness or injury.
"she's in great pain"
So the fisical sensation that causes you cutting your finger is pain, if it's looked in google yo can even found ajahn saying that, sometimes pain is used as translation for dukkha but not very common.
mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm Vedana always causes craving. A person wise enough can correlate craving or desire with vedanā. They can clearly see that when there's vedanā there's desire or craving but when there's no vedanā, no craving. Upon enlightnment there's no more vedanā, only the cessation of vedanā can be discerned and the cessation of craving. Nibbana.
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... craving is suffering.
Yes, and without craving no suffering nor dissatisfaction.
No, IMO vedana does not always cause suffering.

It does not cause craving if you are anagami or arahant.

Certain types of pleasures are wholesome, for example reading a sutta can cause a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving. Doing dana causes a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving.
mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
As I usually say in this forum, it seems the very meaning of vedanā is often not clear. Vedanā is the experience one has from one situation in which they find. There are three types of experience: pleasant experience, unpleasant experience, and a clear and quite palpable experience although underlain by confusion where it's not clear if it's a pleasant experience or an unpleasant one. Those are the three types of vedanā, or experience, or sensation, or feeling, as you prefer.

Boredom experienced as unpleasant is the unpleasant type of vedana but if it is not clear whether this boredom is a pleasant or an unpleasant experience then it's the neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant type of vedanā.

And I doubt Ariyas under training understand such a confusing experience "as a blessing, peace maybe" as you say.

IMO for pathujana, neutral feeling is not just boredom, that's a mild word i used, neutral feeling not being understood is felt as death, can you imagine something worst that being in jail? Yes being in jail in an isolation cell (very little pleasant or unpleasant feeling felt.) an in an isolation cell you have contact with your mind dhammas.

It is very common than couples prefer drama and discussion better than boredom ... neutral feeling for pathujana is understood as death, even unpleasant feeling is preferred over neutral feeling ...

For ariya neutral feeling, being understood, is pleasant because neutral feeling don't causes craving, so not having to deal with the burdensome of craving, peace.
mjaviem wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:50 pm
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ...it is also impossible that there is no feeling...
It's quite possible. The Buddha taught "This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling"
RobertoAnces wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:43 pm ... wisdom is developed by watching how suffering works, no by ignoring...
And they can see that when there's an experience, there's craving, clinging, becoming, birth, and thus suffering or disatissfaction. But without sensation or experience, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, thus no suffering.
IMO feeling is one of the aggregates, so is anicca and can't be own, int he sutta i quoted in my answer is clearly stated that arahant has feeling:
But when a mendicant is keen, not neglecting situational awareness, that astute person understands all feelings.

Completely understanding feelings, they’re without defilements in this very life. That knowledge master is firm in principle; when their body breaks up, they can’t be reckoned.
Can you quote a sutta were "This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling" is said so we can see the context?
As I understand it sometime is said that arahant has no feelings, but the meaning is that he don't regard his feelings as me, mine, myself, they see it free from craving and conceit.

Yeah without contact no sukkha, but if you are awake and conscious there is always contact, you always see, hear, smell, touch ... something. And with contact there is always feeling ... my understanding is that the work to be done is in the level of avijja -> craving+conceit.

Trying to "get rid" of feeling is futile because is impossible, vedana is anatta.

:namaste:
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by mjaviem »

RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am Pain is used usually to mean fisical sensation.
Yes pain is used sometimes as a "physical" sensation or feeling or experience as when stepping on a nail or thorn in the ground. It's a feeling, experience , or sensation of the physical type. But this pain is not phassa or contact. This unpleasant feeling or sensation or experience is vedanā.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
Is English your mother tonge? It causes me trouble to know what english word has been used for the pali word ...
...
No, mine's same as yours and I also have troubles with the language. For example I thought "with the break up of the body" meant something like the kaya or body breaking into pieces or decomposing. Until recently that I realized that romances break up. So it can also mean like a dissolution or dispersing of the kaya.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
If I look in a english dictionary common meaning agrees with the common word used in suttas translation:

So the fisical sensation that causes you cutting your finger is pain, if it's looked in google yo can even found ajahn saying that, sometimes pain is used as translation for dukkha but not very common.
...
Yes, a feeling or vedanā but not contact or phassa.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
No, IMO vedana does not always cause suffering.

It does not cause craving if you are anagami or arahant.

Certain types of pleasures are wholesome, for example reading a sutta can cause a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving. Doing dana causes a pleasant feeling (I like it) and does not cause craving.
...
To me, the very presence, the very manifestation of an experience or feeling means clinging, existence, and birth. Even pleasant experiences or feelings such as when reading suttas and doing dana cause mild forms of tanha or thirst. This thirst always rises to the surface for unenlightened persons when there's an experience or feeling. This mild versions of tanha can be called chanda or "wise" or "wholesome" desire or whatever if you want. It's still tanha and the cause of dissatisfaction and disturbance no matter how mild they are. And this is so under my limited understanding of dependent origination, of course.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ... neutral feeling...
Saying neutral is not right IMO. It leads to think that no feeling is present. That no palpable sensation is there. Adukkhamasukha vedanā are not an absence, are not cancelling each other leaving no feeling. It's an undefined but palpable experience or feeling. Very different to no feeling.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
IMO for pathujana, neutral feeling is not just boredom, that's a mild word i used, neutral feeling not being understood is felt as death, can you imagine something worst that being in jail? Yes being in jail in an isolation cell (very little pleasant or unpleasant feeling felt.) an in an isolation cell you have contact with your mind dhammas.

It is very common than couples prefer drama and discussion better than boredom ... neutral feeling for pathujana is understood as death, even unpleasant feeling is preferred over neutral feeling ...

For ariya neutral feeling, being understood, is pleasant because neutral feeling don't causes craving, so not having to deal with the burdensome of craving, peace.
...
Again, neither-unpleasant-nor-plesant vedanā is not absence of vedanā. Absence of vedanā, or experience, or sensation, or feeling is not existence and those couples and prisoners crave for existence when not feeling anything. But experiences that are present, not absent, such as neither-unpleasant-nor-plesant experiences are very present though not clear whether they're pleasant or unplesant. As when a football fan by the end of a world cup match says that the game played by his team "left a flavor in his mouth which he can't tell if pleasant or unplesant".
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
IMO feeling is one of the aggregates, so is anicca and can't be own, int he sutta i quoted in my answer is clearly stated that arahant has feeling:
But when a mendicant is keen, not neglecting situational awareness, that astute person understands all feelings.

Completely understanding feelings, they’re without defilements in this very life. That knowledge master is firm in principle; when their body breaks up, they can’t be reckoned.
...
Arahant does not have vedanā or experience or feeling, first because they don't "possess" anything and second because vedanā does not even arise because there's no contact and on all the way up to lack of understanding which is also erradicated. Feeling or experience or vedanā are not peace in any way or at any level.

From your quote, "completely understanding feelings" means the the way leading to the cessation of feelings has been understood as well as per MN 9. The cessation of feelings is the wholesome. In this forum most people don't agree with what I'm saying even though it's in the very suttas and I believe it's because they don't understand what vedanā are. They think of physiology and nervous signals, they don't think of our experience but they think in terms of science and models.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
Can you quote a sutta were "This Noble Eightfold Path is the way leading to the cessation of feeling" is said so we can see the context?
...
Please read for example SN 22.56, SN 22.57, SN 36.15, SN 36.23
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
As I understand it sometime is said that arahant has no feelings, but the meaning is that he don't regard his feelings as me, mine, myself, they see it free from craving and conceit.
...
That's your supposition. If you bring a quote we can see what it really is saying.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
Yeah without contact no sukkha, but if you are awake and conscious there is always contact, you always see, hear, smell, touch ... something. And with contact there is always feeling ... my understanding is that the work to be done is in the level of avijja -> craving+conceit.
...
Contact is not a physiological event. Contact happens only when sense organs and sense objects come to be as a product of avijja and viññana or cognition of the experience or vedanā arises. It's quite possible to have the seeing or the sensing or the thinking without an experience or feeling. Quite possible without having a pleasant, an unpleasant or a neither-plesant-nor experience. In the case of an Arahant there's seeing but without contact. Contact is not photons hitting an eye or a thorn punching a foot. Contact is only a product of not understanding. It's not what science studies.
RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:23 am ...
Trying to "get rid" of feeling is futile because is impossible, vedana is anatta.

:namaste:
Vedanā is anatta and it's quite possible to quench it with this understanding.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by auto »

Lal wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:13 pm 14. As we saw in #5 above, anyone above the Sotapanna Anugāmi stage is an “assāsappatto,” and Arahant is a paramassāsappatto.

- On the other hand, “arahaṁ assā” means “received/gained the Arahant phala,” where “assā” is equivalent to “receive.”
- This is in a short sutta, “Dukkara Sutta (SN 39.16),” (https://suttacentral.net/sn39.16/en/suj ... ript=latin) where the question is: “Kīvaciraṁ panāvuso, dhammānudhammappaṭipanno bhikkhu arahaṁ assā” ti?” OR ” If a bhikkhu practices in line with the teaching, will it take them long to receive the Arahanthood?” The word “assā” as well as “assāsa” can have different meanings depending on the context.
- Note that an earlier verse, “Pabbajitena kho, āvuso, abhirati dukkarā” ti.” is mistranslated in the Sutta Central translation as “When you’ve gone forth it’s hard to be satisfied.” The correct translation is, “When you’ve gone forth, you see craving for sensual attractions (abhirati) as (the cause of) suffering (dukkarā).”
take different sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/an10.170/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Rid of dark qualities,
Kaṇhaṁ dhammaṁ vippahāya,
an astute person should develop the bright.
sukkaṁ bhāvetha paṇḍito;
Leaving home behind
Okā anokamāgamma,
for the seclusion so hard to enjoy,
viveke yattha dūramaṁ.
there is the word dūramaṁ which means
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/d/d%C5%ABrama%E1%B9%83/ wrote:Pali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute
dūramaṃ:Absence of enjoyment,irksomeness
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:03 pm Contact is not a physiological event. Contact happens only when sense organs and sense objects come to be as a product of avijja and viññana or cognition of the experience or vedanā arises. It's quite possible to have the seeing or the sensing or the thinking without an experience or feeling. Quite possible without having a pleasant, an unpleasant or a neither-plesant-nor experience. In the case of an Arahant there's seeing but without contact. Contact is not photons hitting an eye or a thorn punching a foot. Contact is only a product of not understanding. It's not what science studies.
This is nonsensical.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote
Contact is not a physiological event.
Quite so, the contact or phassa required for Paticca samuppada to arise, is not a physiological event. In blunt words might one say it only happens mostly in the dim-witted, meaning puthujjana.
Arahants do not engage in contact/phassa with objects of the sensory world.
Some still fail to understand what Salayatana is about. Arahnat is not blind or deaf, just because he or she does not make contact with sensory objects.
mjaviem wrote
Contact happens only when sense organs and sense objects come to be as a product of avijja and viññana or cognition of the experience or vedanā arises.
If you read the sutta on the seamstress in Sutta nipata, it explains it better, or shall I say more logically as Buddha taught. Let me look for it.
Meanwhile it appears that you understand
that Individuality can be brought to a total end by the cessation of consciousness/vinnana
as taught in Ajita's questions in Parayanavagga.
Mjaviem wrote
It's quite possible to have the seeing or the sensing or the thinking without an experience or feeling. Quite possible without having a pleasant, an unpleasant or a neither-plesant-nor experience. In the case of an Arahant there's seeing but without contact.
Your statement is supported by Tissa-Metteyya's Questions in Parayanavagga
Excerpts
'There is a person who is not full of agitation', answered the Buddha.
It is the monk whose actions, in a sensuous world, are pure and good. He does not have the thirst of craving, he never loses mindfulness...
He understands the alternatives without being stuck in the thinking between them. This is whom I call a super being, a man beyond the patchwork world of greed"
Dear mjaviem I do not undersrtand why Ceisiwr wrote above
This is nonsensical.
Is he calling Buddha's teachings in the Parayanavagga or ideas derived from those and Salayatana Samyutta nonsensical? Can someone clarify?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:46 pm Is he calling Buddha's teachings in the Parayanavagga or ideas derived from those and Salayatana Samyutta nonsensical? Can someone clarify?
I’m saying that what you and mjaviem argue for is nonsensical. As for this contact business in Theravada phassa is a mental dhamma, not a physical one.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Once again, we see the reconstructionists recapitulating their groundless theories that Arhats don't experience contact-born sensory cognitions associated with six bases.

:roll:

On and on and on they spin. Who knows where they will land next?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
As for this contact business in Theravada phassa is a mental dhamma, not a physical one.
who is spinning now?
who said phassa is a physical Dhamma? Did I not say Phassa is explained more logically in Parayanavagga? Can you even locate instances where "seamstress" is mentioned in the suttas?
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pulsar
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Re: How does the practice of anapanasati relate to paticca-samuppada?

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
On and on and on they spin. Who knows where they will land next?
Yes according to you, all the suttas I mention on this forum, including my Jhana thread are fake suttas.
How would you know,
being Mahayana, have you even read the Parayanavagga which I quoted from?
So much for the folks of Pure land. Who is twisting the truth? It is just your pal, is it not?
  • Neither mjaviem nor I said contact/phassa is a physical event.
Didn't you say elsewhere that the post on Salayatana created by Asahi, some time ago, and well explained by Retro was all phony?
Do you even understand what Salayatana means?
With the Best of Good Will :candle:
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