Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

form wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:39 am
Have you come across the Buddha mentioned retreat to a cave, forest.......... To meditate?
What do you mean? The Buddha has many places to meditate. Basically anywhere in the wilderness where food is scarce. Where life is harsh, you're constantly exposed to weather and the threats of wild animals.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Pondera
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by Pondera »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:37 am
Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:32 am
Okay? Explain to me how you’re not a hypocrite? :shrug:

Are you living in a forest? Are surrounded by flesh eating Guinea Pigs? What is it about your approach to Buddhism that allows you to call me dishonest?

I’m not down in life! I’ve got everything going for me! A house, a soul-mate, some of the most wonderful animal companions I could hope for, work I enjoy, friends and family.

You forget that even in the Buddha’s time if it were not for the laity the ascetics would starve. EVERY sangha NEEDS a laity. And it is the purpose of the sangha to guide the laity on their spiritual path.

Lastly. I hardly believe the Buddha was attempting to “emulate” suffering when he left for the forest. Where in the heck did you get that idea?
Soul mate.... There you have it :juggling:

How do I even disprove your proclaim? :guns:

Anyone can say anything on the internet you see. It's a cliche.
Hmm 🤔 yeah. Err … you’re a strange one. I haven’t given up on you yet though :clap:

Okay. So first I’m dishonest because I don’t live in a crab infested forest? Secondly, I’m a liar because I’ve been married to the same woman for 14 years and she happens to be my best friend, i find no other woman as attractive as her, and she feels similarly about me? Hmm 🤔

You’re assuming a lot, my young friend. Both above and below.

You’re assuming I haven’t suffered enough to know how to overcome it. That’s false.

You’re assuming that because I live in the world with modest wealth and possessions and relations (ie. NOT a forest) I can’t be happy and/or train in the Buddha Dhamma. That’s also false.

Now, ahem … you say the Buddha “mastered” suffering in order to end it. Are you sure? When the Buddha practiced extreme asceticism he was on the brink of death when it occurred to him:

“No other ascetic has endured as much pain as I have by these extreme asceticisms. And yet it is not the path.”

He recalled a pleasant afternoon in his fathers apple orchard as a boy. In the shade of a tree he entered the first jhana spontaneously. Recalling this, the nearly dead Gautama said:

“This is the way to awakening. But I cannot practice it under such painful conditions. I must take solid food.”

After regaining his health, he practiced the middle way. Between over indulgence and extreme asceticism, he found the path of jhana.

Now, that is true, established, fundamental Buddha Dhamma. In the palace he was surrounded by pleasures. In the forest, he went OUT OF HIS WAY to torture himself.

It was by avoiding these two extremes that he walked the path to enlightenment.

People would later say of the Buddha:

“It is because the Buddha has not overcome lust, hatred, and ignorance that he continues to dwell in the forest.”

To which the Buddha would reply:

“It is out of infinite compassion for the generations to come that I remain living in the forests.”

FWIW
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:06 am
Hmm 🤔 yeah. Err … you’re a strange one. I haven’t given up on you yet though :clap:

Okay. So first I’m dishonest because I don’t live in a crab infested forest? Secondly, I’m a liar because I’ve been married to the same woman for 14 years and she happens to be my best friend, i find no other woman as attractive as her, and she feels similarly about me? Hmm 🤔

You’re assuming a lot, my young friend. Both above and below.

You’re assuming I haven’t suffered enough to know how to overcome it. That’s false.

You’re assuming that because I live in the world with modest wealth and possessions and relations (ie. NOT a forest) I can’t be happy and/or train in the Buddha Dhamma. That’s also false.

Now, ahem … you say the Buddha “mastered” suffering in order to end it. Are you sure? When the Buddha practiced extreme asceticism he was on the brink of death when it occurred to him:

“No other ascetic has endured as much pain as I have by these extreme asceticisms. And yet it is not the path.”

He recalled a pleasant afternoon in his fathers apple orchard as a boy. In the shade of a tree he entered the first jhana spontaneously. Recalling this, the nearly dead Gautama said:

“This is the way to awakening. But I cannot practice it under such painful conditions. I must take solid food.”

After regaining his health, he practiced the middle way. Between over indulgence and extreme asceticism, he found the path of jhana.

Now, that is true, established, fundamental Buddha Dhamma. In the palace he was surrounded by pleasures. In the forest, he went OUT OF HIS WAY to torture himself.

It was by avoiding these two extremes that he walked the path to enlightenment.

People would later say of the Buddha:

“It is because the Buddha has not overcome lust, hatred, and ignorance that he continues to dwell in the forest.”

To which the Buddha would reply:

“It is out of infinite compassion for the generations to come that I remain living in the forests.”

FWIW
Well I'm glad that you're not a dumb coward. But for the soulmate thing I'll need proof for that.

Extreme asceticism sounds more like BDSM for me. The fact that they torture themselves is a form of self hatred. They actually try to ease suffering by tormenting themselves. My opinion is that their very existence is suffering on their own accord.

But what do you think? :computerproblem:
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

It feels a lot like gaslighting if you call people strange for expressing their thoughts. It's an internet forum you see, where people hide behind their RGB keyboards. People laughing at you is suffering. People looking down on you is suffering. People not deeming you as their equal is suffering. And that folks, is how the lie was invented. Good old inferiority complex and low self esteem :smile:
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Pondera
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by Pondera »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:15 am
Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:06 am
Hmm 🤔 yeah. Err … you’re a strange one. I haven’t given up on you yet though :clap:

Okay. So first I’m dishonest because I don’t live in a crab infested forest? Secondly, I’m a liar because I’ve been married to the same woman for 14 years and she happens to be my best friend, i find no other woman as attractive as her, and she feels similarly about me? Hmm 🤔

You’re assuming a lot, my young friend. Both above and below.

You’re assuming I haven’t suffered enough to know how to overcome it. That’s false.

You’re assuming that because I live in the world with modest wealth and possessions and relations (ie. NOT a forest) I can’t be happy and/or train in the Buddha Dhamma. That’s also false.

Now, ahem … you say the Buddha “mastered” suffering in order to end it. Are you sure? When the Buddha practiced extreme asceticism he was on the brink of death when it occurred to him:

“No other ascetic has endured as much pain as I have by these extreme asceticisms. And yet it is not the path.”

He recalled a pleasant afternoon in his fathers apple orchard as a boy. In the shade of a tree he entered the first jhana spontaneously. Recalling this, the nearly dead Gautama said:

“This is the way to awakening. But I cannot practice it under such painful conditions. I must take solid food.”

After regaining his health, he practiced the middle way. Between over indulgence and extreme asceticism, he found the path of jhana.

Now, that is true, established, fundamental Buddha Dhamma. In the palace he was surrounded by pleasures. In the forest, he went OUT OF HIS WAY to torture himself.

It was by avoiding these two extremes that he walked the path to enlightenment.

People would later say of the Buddha:

“It is because the Buddha has not overcome lust, hatred, and ignorance that he continues to dwell in the forest.”

To which the Buddha would reply:

“It is out of infinite compassion for the generations to come that I remain living in the forests.”

FWIW
Well I'm glad that you're not a dumb coward. But for the soulmate thing I'll need proof for that.

Extreme asceticism sounds more like BDSM for me. The fact that they torture themselves is a form of self hatred. They actually try to ease suffering by tormenting themselves. My opinion is that their very existence is suffering on their own accord.

But what do you think? :computerproblem:
Well. I don’t know you well enough to tell you the amount of suffering I endured between the ages of 26 and 27. I required psychiatric care. I can tell you that much.

I was close to suicide. When I met my wife, she was the same way. We clicked instantly. But you want proof. Well. We saved each other’s lives and built one together over the last 14 years.

One thing you may or may not find interesting. My wife was born in Poland and her father left her when she was one year old. She grew up there and came here at 23.

My father also abandoned my mother even before I was born.

My wife and I have a joke. September 25th is international Dead-beat dad day! And the reason … her father and my father share the same birthday!

So we’ve always found that funny. The sheer odds of her and I meeting are astronomical. But marriage is work and compromise and a lot of understanding.

With asceticism, the thing is AFAIAC Jain religion lasted in India where as Buddhism died out!!! :shrug:

That doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you think about the caste system and how the Buddha dismantled it while he was alive. (Not completely. But he both challenged it and took it apart one devotee at a time. One Brahmin youth at a time).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
samsarayoga
Posts: 188
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:21 am
Well. I don’t know you well enough to tell you the amount of suffering I endured between the ages of 26 and 27. I required psychiatric care. I can tell you that much.

I was close to suicide. When I met my wife, she was the same way. We clicked instantly. But you want proof. Well. We saved each other’s lives and built one together over the last 14 years.

One thing you may or may not find interesting. My wife was born in Poland and her father left her when she was one year old. She grew up there and came here at 23.

My father also abandoned my mother even before I was born.

My wife and I have a joke. September 25th is international Dead-beat dad day! And the reason … her father and my father share the same birthday!

So we’ve always found that funny. The sheer odds of her and I meeting are astronomical. But marriage is work and compromise and a lot of understanding.

With asceticism, the thing is AFAIAC Jain religion lasted in India where as Buddhism died out!!! :shrug:

That doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you think about the caste system and how the Buddha dismantled it while he was alive. (Not completely. But he both challenged it and took it apart one devotee at a time. One Brahmin youth at a time).
Yet you have the time to call me strange.

The thing about Hinduism is that it's a pantheon. Buddhism got absorbed into Hinduism. It didn't die out. It's quite similar to Mahayana I think.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
form
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by form »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
form wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:39 am
Have you come across the Buddha mentioned retreat to a cave, forest.......... To meditate?
What do you mean? The Buddha has many places to meditate. Basically anywhere in the wilderness where food is scarce. Where life is harsh, you're constantly exposed to weather and the threats of wild animals.
You said palace and some luxurious places right?
santa100
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by santa100 »

samsarayoga wrote:Anyone can say anything on the internet you see. It's a cliche.
And you have proven to be a pretty damn good case in point.
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

santa100 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:50 pm And you have proven to be a pretty damn good case in point.
Precisely. I'm impressed you finally get it.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
santa100
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by santa100 »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:54 pm Precisely. I'm impressed you finally get it.
No rocket science here.
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

form wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:47 am
You said palace and some luxurious places right?
I doubt the Sakyan palace was that luxurious tho. I can't find any historical account about this small kingdom. Although it was absolute monarchy non the less. Well wiki said it's actually an oligarch republic akin to early Rome or Venice.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
form
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by form »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:42 pm
form wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:47 am
You said palace and some luxurious places right?
I doubt the Sakyan palace was that luxurious tho. I can't find any historical account about this small kingdom. Although it was absolute monarchy non the less. Well wiki said it's actually an oligarch republic akin to early Rome or Venice.
You have some scientific brain. You also need some direct knowledge to get those answers you want.
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Pondera
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by Pondera »

samsarayoga wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:15 am
Pondera wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:21 am
Well. I don’t know you well enough to tell you the amount of suffering I endured between the ages of 26 and 27. I required psychiatric care. I can tell you that much.

I was close to suicide. When I met my wife, she was the same way. We clicked instantly. But you want proof. Well. We saved each other’s lives and built one together over the last 14 years.

One thing you may or may not find interesting. My wife was born in Poland and her father left her when she was one year old. She grew up there and came here at 23.

My father also abandoned my mother even before I was born.

My wife and I have a joke. September 25th is international Dead-beat dad day! And the reason … her father and my father share the same birthday!

So we’ve always found that funny. The sheer odds of her and I meeting are astronomical. But marriage is work and compromise and a lot of understanding.

With asceticism, the thing is AFAIAC Jain religion lasted in India where as Buddhism died out!!! :shrug:

That doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless you think about the caste system and how the Buddha dismantled it while he was alive. (Not completely. But he both challenged it and took it apart one devotee at a time. One Brahmin youth at a time).
Yet you have the time to call me strange.

The thing about Hinduism is that it's a pantheon. Buddhism got absorbed into Hinduism. It didn't die out. It's quite similar to Mahayana I think.
Exactly
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Dhammapardon
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by Dhammapardon »

samsarayoga wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:43 pm What do you think? Did the Buddha actually became samsara itself or did he escape it? Or was it something else?
I think something else. He observed it. Before understanding, samsara whirls you about. After understanding samsara whirls about what is not yours, what is not you. You aren't gone but also no longer interested in what was once understood as you. So you get to observe it unattached.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
samsarayoga
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Re: Is nirvana escaping samsara or becoming one with samsara itself?

Post by samsarayoga »

Dhammapardon wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:41 am
I think something else. He observed it. Before understanding, samsara whirls you about. After understanding samsara whirls about what is not yours, what is not you. You aren't gone but also no longer interested in what was once understood as you. So you get to observe it unattached.
But you don't even have a consciousness anymore in 3rd arupa jhana. You don't have a mind in 2nd rupa jhana. You don't have eyes in 1st arupa jhana. How do you observe something if you don't have anything?
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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