Do arahants have thoughts?

[nirodh27]

If they want, about what they want:

This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.”

MN20

Since we are not the master or creator of our thoughts, what is stated in this sutta is nonsense. If what in the sutta is stated were so, we would not be anatta. Since this wouldn't comply with the three marks of existence, it is safe to say that the words in that sutta are not the Buddha's words.

Hi Peter,

I don't think that the sutta means what you think you mean. It is evident that with mental training and mental wisdom the mind passes from an unruly beast without direction prey to the senses to a collected, controlled mind with a clear direction. Have you ever had a thought that you didn't want to have, but you still had like temptations about sensuality? Probably yes. The Buddha before full-enlightenement was tempted too as well.

With the wisdom and the mental training of the Arahant, the Arahant will not have this problem anymore. That doesn't mean that conditioned things like thoughts will magically become under our control and happiness.

[riceandcashews]

A quote that may be of interest to those who are skeptical of the import of non-thinking to the path:

And these three unskilled states disappear utterly in him whose heart is well established in the four foundations of mindfulness, or who practices concentration on the signless.

"Indeed, monks, this concentration on the signless is greatly to be commended; the concentration on the signless, if developed and frequently practiced, is of great fruit, of great profit.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

Which seems to suggest, perhaps controversially, that non-thinking meditation maybe be an independent path to nirvana separate from the four foundations of mindfulness. Perhaps this is affirmation that the zen path of shikantanza/silent illumination, as well as the higher vehicles of the tibetan traditions are a valid alternative to more traditional meditative approaches? Does anyone know if this kind of approach to non-thinking as path has been explored in the Theravada traditions (whether or not you agree with them or think they can be successful)? I'm personally not familiar with that but just am curious. I find this quote, among others in the suttas, quite interesting but also surprising given the more traditional interpretations of dhamma I'm familiar with.

[mikenz66]

Without going into all the details, I think a lot of the difficulties go away if one takes the descriptions of cessation of various things as what happens at awakening, or by dwelling in arhattaphalasamādhi (as per Theravada, Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18, which I just happened to be listening to...).

https://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/

The Arahant (before the breakup of the body) then still has feelings, thoughts, etc, but without attachment. Other interpretations are possible, but I don't personally find them convincing.


Mike

Hi Mike, to be honest I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. I understand your comment about arahants having feelings/thoughts without attachment as a viable interpretation, but I'm not sure how that relates to your idea that cessation of perception/signlessness is somehow related to abiding in nirvana but isn't thoughtlessness (at least with signs)? That latter part is unclear to me relative to the questions at hand.

My view, which, as I said is based Theravada commentaries, and Ven Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons linked above (these differ in detail from the commentaries of course, but not on this point) is that the Arahant experiences cessation, extinguishment, etc at the point of awakening (which eliminates the fetters), and can return to this form of samadhi at will. However, it is not a 24/7 thing, until the breakup of the body. To me, this solves a number of issues intrinsic to the interpretation that an Arahant is in a 24/7 nibbana "state". Of course, there is plenty of room for discussion of details - I'm just presenting an overall sketch of the difference between what I understand as two major types of interpretation

https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... dstilled18
The assertion made by the phrase beginning with tassa tiṭṭhanteva pañcindriyāni yesaṃ avighātattā ... , "his five senses do exist, owing to the non-destruction of which ...", rather apologetically brings out the limitations of the living arahant. It is reminiscent of those smouldering embers in the imagery of the Nāgasutta. However, in so far as flames of lust, hate and delusion are quenched in him, it comes to be called sa-upādisesā Nibbānadhātu, even as in the case of those smouldering embers.
...
The popular interpretation of the term anupādisesā Nibbānadhātu leaves room for some absolutist conceptions of an asaṅkhata dhātu, unprepared element, as the destiny of the arahant. After his parinibbāna, he is supposed to enter this particular Nibbānadhātu. But here, in this discourse, it is explained in just one sentence: Tassa idheva, bhikkhave, sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītibhavissanti, "in the case of him" (that is the arahant) ", O! monks, all what is felt, not having been delighted in, will cool off here itself."
...
This cooling off happens just before death, without igniting another spark of life. When Māra comes to grab and seize, the arahant lets go. The pain of death with which Māra teases his hapless victim and lures him into another existence, becomes ineffective in the case of the arahant. As he has already gone through the supramundane experience of deathlessness, in the arahattaphalasamādhi, death loses its sting when at last it comes. The influx-free deliverance of the mind and the influx-free deliverance through wisdom enable him to cool down all feelings in a way that baffles Māra.

Mike

[mikenz66]

Hi Retro,

The arahant has what are known as suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ or "pure preparations" that are not addled by avijja.

When sankharanirodha is spoken of, it's the cessation of sankharas that are dependent upon avijja.

This sounds like an overinterpretation of the translation of suddhaṁ (pure) in sutta that Ven Nanananda quotes:

"To one who sees
The arising of pure dhammas
And the sequence of pure preparations, as they are,
There is no fear, oh headman."
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... dstilled26

This is from Thag16.1 https://suttacentral.net/thag16.1 and other translators interpret is as "pure arising" or "bare arising":

Suddhaṁ dhammasamuppādaṁ,
Suddhaṁ saṅkhārasantatiṁ;
Passantassa yathābhūtaṁ,
Na bhayaṁ hoti gāmaṇi.

Sujato:
Seeing in accordance with reality
the bare arising of phenomena,
Suddhaṁ saṅkhārasantatiṁ;
and the bare process of conditions,
there is no fear, village chief.

Norman:
“There is no fear for one who sees, as they really are, the pure and simple
arising of phenomena, and the pure and simple causal continuity of the
constituent elements, chieftain.”

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

The only person incapable of fear is an arahant.

Metta,
Paul.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Greetings riceandcashews,

The arahant has what are known as suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ or "pure preparations" that are not addled by avijja.

When sankharanirodha is spoken of, it's the cessation of sankharas that are dependent upon avijja.

Metta,
Paul.

You are of the opinion that the state of cessation of perception/signlessness is actually a state that involves perception and signs (thoughts), just ones not colored with ignorance? Wouldn't that suggest that naming the states 'cessation of perception' and 'signlessness' is extraordinarily misleading? The states should instead be named 'cessation of delusional perception' and 'the absence of delusional signs' instead. For this reason, I at present feel disinclined to agree with your interpretation without evidence in the suttas supporting such an interpretation.

No - you are muddling meditative states with the nirodha of paticcasamuppada.

Metta,
Paul.

[mikenz66]

Greetings Mike,

The only person incapable of fear is an arahant.

Metta,
Paul.

Of course. That doesn't actually address the issue I raised.


Mike

[mjaviem]

[riceandcashews]

My view, which, as I said is based Theravada commentaries, and Ven Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons linked above (these differ in detail from the commentaries of course, but not on this point) is that the Arahant experiences cessation, extinguishment, etc at the point of awakening (which eliminates the fetters), and can return to this form of samadhi at will. However, it is not a 24/7 thing, until the breakup of the body. To me, this solves a number of issues intrinsic to the interpretation that an Arahant is in a 24/7 nibbana "state". Of course, there is plenty of room for discussion of details - I'm just presenting an overall sketch of the difference between what I understand as two major types of interpretation

I don't think this interpretation of arahants/buddhas as not actually abiding permanently in nirvana matches with what is described in the suttas, unfortunately. Regarding an arahant or buddha:

He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Total ending" and "totally awakened" seem pretty final. Also, there are many passages that describe arahants as beyond description both in this life and after they die in the same way.

[riceandcashews]

You are of the opinion that the state of cessation of perception/signlessness is actually a state that involves perception and signs (thoughts), just ones not colored with ignorance? Wouldn't that suggest that naming the states 'cessation of perception' and 'signlessness' is extraordinarily misleading? The states should instead be named 'cessation of delusional perception' and 'the absence of delusional signs' instead. For this reason, I at present feel disinclined to agree with your interpretation without evidence in the suttas supporting such an interpretation.

No - you are muddling meditative states with the nirodha of paticcasamuppada.

Perhaps. These suttas seem to me to indicate otherwise however:

Cessation of perception as contact with the signless:

When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... than.htmlx

Release attained from concentration on the signless:

And these three unskilled states disappear utterly in him whose heart is well established in the four foundations of mindfulness, or who practices concentration on the signless.

"Indeed, monks, this concentration on the signless is greatly to be commended; the concentration on the signless, if developed and frequently practiced, is of great fruit, of great profit.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

Cessation of perception as being the state associated with release:

Again, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

Themeless concentration of awareness (which seems to be the same as the signless concentration in description throughout) as also the state attained beyond neither-perception-nor-nonperception (aka cessation of perception), and being associated with release:

He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.'...

He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

To me, what we have above seems to indicate signless concentration = cessation of perception = themeless concentration of awareness = the final/most important state that leads to complete insight and total release, possibly even effective while bypassing the meditations on the breath (although it might be quite difficult for mundane beings to attain and sustain such a state both in the short and long term enough to get the benefits of it without first having done preceding meditations on breath).

[santa100]

"Total ending" and "totally awakened" seem pretty final. Also, there are many passages that describe arahants as beyond description both in this life and after they die in the same way.

"totally awakened" doesn't automatically imply that the arahant no longer has thoughts. Afterall, even after attaining total awakening, the arahant still has to go on alms round, teaches his students, goes to the toilet, etc... all the activities that require a full engagement of the Five Aggregates: rupa/vedana/sanna/sankhara/vinnana. They're still there. They just don't operate in the usual "defiled" mode of a regular worldling, but they're still there. For if they're not there, the Buddha would: 1. no longer has a body(no rupa) 2. no longer experience painful/pleasant/neutral sensations(no vedana) 3. tell the difference between a flower versus a pile of shit(no sanna) 4. decide to teach His students or not(no sankhara) 5. a walking vegetable(no vinnana). So, unless by "thoughts" you meant something lying outside the Five Aggregates, an arahant still needs his Five Aggregates intact to carry on his daily tasks. They're still there. It's just that they no longer operate in the usual defiled mode of the common worldling.

[mikenz66]

I don't think this interpretation of arahants/buddhas as not actually abiding permanently in nirvana matches with what is described in the suttas, unfortunately. ...

Well, as I said, I am aware of these two main interpretations, and of course there is plenty of room for discussion. I personally find the "abiding permanently" interpretation problematical, in view of an arahant still experiencing feelings, thoughts, and so on, as discussed in this thread, so I tend to side with the interpretation of Ven Nanananda (among others) that the cessation and so on at awakening, or in the awakened samadhi that the arahant can return to, is temporary until the breakup of the body.

"Total ending" and "totally awakened" seem pretty final.

Yes, of course. It's irreversible. See, for example, MN140: https://suttacentral.net/mn140

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence. Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a painful feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a neutral feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached. Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

Suppose an oil lamp depended on oil and a wick to burn. As the oil and the wick are used up, it would be extinguished due to lack of fuel. In the same way, feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of wisdom. For this is the ultimate noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the ending of suffering.

Their freedom, being founded on truth, is unshakable. For that which is false has a deceptive nature, while that which is true has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate resolve of truth. For this is the ultimate noble truth, namely, that which has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.

Mike

[Pondera]

I’d say “no thoughts”. I also think that when one enters Nirodha Samapatti they think or utter a certain declaration, like “on this day I will utterly smash the spokes which bind me to the wheel of samsara.”

But don’t underestimate the power of thought. It’s one of the noble steps, as we all know. Arriving at Nirodha Samapatti is contingent on right thought and right speech.

It’s a very hard “short term” path to walk. Speaking at the right time. Evaluating states of mind at the right time. Maintaining mindfulness almost exclusively.

But - yes. It amounts to silence.

Even the calmest lake can be stirred up by a current from below. It is not possible for most mortals to maintain total silence all the time. The currents that exist in this world tend towards thought.

If I understand your response, you are in the camp that interprets an arahant as perpetually abiding in 'no thoughts' then? I think in some ways this is a natural interpretation of the suttas, but how do you deal with times in the suttas where thoughts are attributed to the buddha or passages like the one quoted by nirodh27? Would you chalk those up to skillful means within the suttas, and not reflective of the actual state of mind of arahants?

Pretty much. Even as I write this I have already drained my hippocampus of consciousness. I have been essentially thoughtless for the better part of the day. Don’t confuse my meaning. I am not claiming to be an Arahant. I am simply saying that achieving the peace of thoughtlessness, and being unadulterated by Mara is a simple process of draining the brain of consciousness.

Point being that I can articulate all of my *meaning* quite easily while remaining at peace. And I go about my livelihood in a very intelligent and coherent manner despite spending my alone time in a state of quietude.

[PeterC86]

"Total ending" and "totally awakened" seem pretty final. Also, there are many passages that describe arahants as beyond description both in this life and after they die in the same way.

"totally awakened" doesn't automatically imply that the arahant no longer has thoughts. Afterall, even after attaining total awakening, the arahant still has to go on alms round, teaches his students, goes to the toilet, etc... all the activities that require a full engagement of the Five Aggregates: rupa/vedana/sanna/sankhara/vinnana. They're still there. They just don't operate in the usual "defiled" mode of a regular worldling, but they're still there. For if they're not there, the Buddha would: 1. no longer has a body(no rupa) 2. no longer experience painful/pleasant/neutral sensations(no vedana) 3. tell the difference between a flower versus a pile of shit(no sanna) 4. decide to teach His students or not(no sankhara) 5. a walking vegetable(no vinnana). So, unless by "thoughts" you meant something lying outside the Five Aggregates, an arahant still needs his Five Aggregates intact to carry on his daily tasks. They're still there. It's just that they no longer operate in the usual defiled mode of the common worldling.

Indeed, one always needs to keep in mind the difference between conventional and ultimate.

[PeterC86]

If they want, about what they want:



MN20

Since we are not the master or creator of our thoughts, what is stated in this sutta is nonsense. If what in the sutta is stated were so, we would not be anatta. Since this wouldn't comply with the three marks of existence, it is safe to say that the words in that sutta are not the Buddha's words.

Hi Peter,

I don't think that the sutta means what you think you mean. It is evident that with mental training and mental wisdom the mind passes from an unruly beast without direction prey to the senses to a collected, controlled mind with a clear direction. Have you ever had a thought that you didn't want to have, but you still had like temptations about sensuality? Probably yes. The Buddha before full-enlightenement was tempted too as well.

With the wisdom and the mental training of the Arahant, the Arahant will not have this problem anymore. That doesn't mean that conditioned things like thoughts will magically become under our control and happiness.

No, trying to clear the mind from 'bad' thoughts is a practice which causes a lot of suffering, since we are not the creator of our thoughts. Although our thoughts are influenced by our mental state, we are never in control. Trying to be in control, is trying to go against anatta, which is the core of the Buddha's teaching. If I would be in control, I would not be anatta, since there would be something that is in control, which would be me. So although certain practices like meditation, or having an easy lifestyle, influence our thoughts, trying to be in control is a cause of suffering, since you never are. It will lead to compulsively trying to get rid of 'bad' thoughts, and every time a 'bad' thought enters the mind, it is perceived as bad, because one believes that an Arahant doesn't have 'bad' thoughts. It is a wrong understanding of the teaching, and this sutta looks like a fabrication of the Theravada sect, since it follows their doctrine.