riceandcashews wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:31 am
I don't think this interpretation of arahants/buddhas as not actually abiding permanently in nirvana matches with what is described in the suttas, unfortunately. ...
Well, as I said, I am aware of these two main interpretations, and of course there is plenty of room for discussion. I personally find the "abiding permanently" interpretation problematical, in view of an arahant still experiencing feelings, thoughts, and so on, as discussed in this thread, so I tend to side with the interpretation of Ven Nanananda (among others) that the cessation and so on at awakening, or in the awakened samadhi that the arahant can return to, is temporary until the breakup of the body.
"Total ending" and "totally awakened" seem pretty final.
Yes, of course. It's irreversible. See, for example, MN140:
https://suttacentral.net/mn140
They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence. Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a painful feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it. If they feel a neutral feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached. If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached. Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’
Suppose an oil lamp depended on oil and a wick to burn. As the oil and the wick are used up, it would be extinguished due to lack of fuel. In the same way, feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’ They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’
Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of wisdom. For this is the ultimate noble wisdom, namely, the knowledge of the ending of suffering.
Their freedom, being founded on truth, is unshakable. For that which is false has a deceptive nature, while that which is true has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate resolve of truth. For this is the ultimate noble truth, namely, that which has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.
Mike