Do arahants have thoughts?

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Jack19990101
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by Jack19990101 »

With no perception at all, that is nirodha.

With fabrication neither suppressed nor blocked, concentration theme neither forced back nor pressed against, there is stillness, contentment, thus no irritation -
This is the fruit of arahant-ship.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:46 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 pm ,...
The preparations in question are "pure", because they're not laced with avijja. They are simply the thoughts etc. of an arahant, which you cannot explain otherwise without such a concept.
...
Then, they can't be preparations. They must be "just so", just "thoughts, etc"
You're assuming that just because sankhara rise in dependent upon avijja in paticcasamuppada, that sankharas must necessarily arise dependent upon avijja. The sutta concept of suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ shows this isn't necessarily so.

All thoughts are fabricated... how could they be otherwise?
SN 41.6 wrote:Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Pondera
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by Pondera »

riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:10 pm Do arahants have thoughts? Whether you answer in the affirmative or negative, what then is the function of the state of signlessness/cessation of perception (a state I think I could correctly refer to as not-thinking)?

There are suttas where the Buddha is cited as having thoughts ('this thought occurred to me and so I now say it to you' is in many suttas)
The suttas cite papanca as ceasing in nirvana
It would seem that thoughts are fabrications.
The suttas reference nirvana as the end of all fabrications

There are several suttas that at minimum indicate that signlessness/cessation of perception is a state that can be used to attain nirvana, or even immediately reveals the truth of not-self. It may even be required for stream entry and arahantship on some readings of the suttas. In your view, what is the benefit/utility of signlessness/cessation of perception to one on the path? Is it necessary on the path, or optional? If necessary, why is it necessary? If helpful but not necessary, in what way is it helpful beyond any other meditative states?

If arahants have thoughts, then there would have to be a difference between thoughts that are papanca/fabrications and thoughts that aren't, given that arahants are without papanca/fabrications. How would you characterize the difference between these?

(I have not cited the relevant suttas here on the assumption that the above references are widely acknowledged - if they are not I can provide relevant citations as needed)

I’d say “no thoughts”. I also think that when one enters Nirodha Samapatti they think or utter a certain declaration, like “on this day I will utterly smash the spokes which bind me to the wheel of samsara.”

But don’t underestimate the power of thought. It’s one of the noble steps, as we all know. Arriving at Nirodha Samapatti is contingent on right thought and right speech.

It’s a very hard “short term” path to walk. Speaking at the right time. Evaluating states of mind at the right time. Maintaining mindfulness almost exclusively.

But - yes. It amounts to silence.

Even the calmest lake can be stirred up by a current from below. It is not possible for most mortals to maintain total silence all the time. The currents that exist in this world tend towards thought.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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nirodh27
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by nirodh27 »

If they want, about what they want:
This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.”
MN20
PeterC86
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by PeterC86 »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:40 am If they want, about what they want:
This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.”
MN20
Since we are not the master or creator of our thoughts, what is stated in this sutta is nonsense. If what in the sutta is stated were so, we would not be anatta. Since this wouldn't comply with the three marks of existence, it is safe to say that the words in that sutta are not the Buddha's words.
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by PeterC86 »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:46 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 pm ,...
The preparations in question are "pure", because they're not laced with avijja. They are simply the thoughts etc. of an arahant, which you cannot explain otherwise without such a concept.
...
Then, they can't be preparations. They must be "just so", just "thoughts, etc"
I just wanted to add, in addition to retro's response on your post, that sabbbe dhamma anatta. So, as retro mentioned, an arahant still has intentions, but the arahant has realized that they are not-self, and therefore these intentions do not arise dependent upon ignorance.
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mjaviem
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by mjaviem »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:44 am ...
The sutta concept of suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ shows this isn't necessarily so.
...
This is new to me. I'm used to read from SN, MN, AN but haven't noticed this

Would you mind to share a reference or quote from the suttas about this conditioned and fragile fabrications coming to be/exist although true understanding is present?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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confusedlayman
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by confusedlayman »

they have thoughts when they need to talk etc but they dont think the contents of thoughts are real existing object and produce the thoughts/cling to that tought due to this ignorance..

their thought comes and go without trace and will not arise again by desire or inogrance but simply due to conditions to operate in world. i may be wrong too

if someone ask arhant about dhamma, it arises spontaneuosly but its a thought but they dont think it againa nd again when someone dont ask just to cling to feeling induced by that thoights.. the push nature is not there to originate thoughts based on desire/ignorance
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:38 pm Fabrications/sankharas are not action IMO. Action, (I mean intentional action), is kamma. Sankharas are "making up" in my understanding. It's not merely a 'belief' but a lack of understanding about the truth so the making-up is everywhere building up everything.
Would you agree that there are three kinds of fabrications? Verbal, mental, and bodily? To me those sound like three modes of intention or action.

Also, I mean belief in the way you mean understanding, so understanding/belief conditions the fabrications that arise, with understanding of not-self conditioning the non-arising of fabrications. But clearly arahants still have thoughts, speak words, and move their body. So based on that it seems to me like formations are actions/intentions of a certain character associated with conceptualizing and constructing a self. Do you disagree?
mjaviem wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:38 pm It seems final insight requires reaching the cessation of perception first. I don't know why but it's in the suttas
It seems to me like we should be very in understanding why cessation of perception/signlessness is given such a significant position on the path, at least if we take the suttas seriously. Perhaps it says something about the nature if liberation if it is required on the path to reaching it?
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mjaviem
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by mjaviem »

riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm Would you agree that there are three kinds of fabrications? Verbal, mental, and bodily?...
...
Yes, it's in the suttas: kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro, cittasankhāro.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ... To me those sound like three modes of intention or action.
...
Intentional for sure. I don't see them necessarily as action or kamma when I think of fabrications . But may be you're right and any sankhara is also kamma. Perhaps you're right. If I have something to say about this I'll let you know.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ...
Also, I mean belief in the way you mean understanding...
I think you mean belief in the way I mean NOT understanding.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ...belief conditions the fabrications that arise, with understanding of not-self conditioning the non-arising of fabrications...
It seems so. Yes.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ... But clearly arahants still have thoughts, speak words, and move their body...
Those are just thoughts, just speech spoken, just words, just movement, just body. Nothing special about them. Nothing good or bad for us about them.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ... formations are actions/intentions of a certain character associated with conceptualizing and constructing a self. Do you disagree?
...
You explained to me sankharas are also kamma. And yes I agree. Sankharas concoct, are the concocting, and are concocted. The concoction of what? Of a self, of what belongs to a self, of permanence, of satisfaction, of trueness.
riceandcashews wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:03 pm ...
It seems to me like we should be very in understanding why cessation of perception/signlessness is given such a significant position on the path, at least if we take the suttas seriously. Perhaps it says something about the nature if liberation if it is required on the path to reaching it?
I don't get you point so not replying here this time.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:48 pmOne can understand and view the world as being ultimately empty of self or what belongs to a self but can still use the concepts of self and belongings. Likewise, an Arahant can understand and view the world as being ultimately empty of "things" such as earth element, water element, houses, stars, galaxies etc but still course in those concepts without being f ooled by them. The ultimate understanding is that of no arising, no ceasing, no persisting, no changing, no coming, no going, no here, no there, no far shore, no near shore, no earth, no moon, no self, no other. When that is understood, one still thinks or speaks in terms of arising, ceasing, persisting, changing, coming, going, here, there, a far shore, a near shore, earth, moon, self and other.
This sounds like mahayana emptiness. I'm not opposed to this reading, but is emptiness of this sort in the tipitaka? Obviously experience being empty of a self as in a personality/subjective conscious agency is central to the tipitaka, but is there a role in the tipitaka that emptiness of the world/of essence in general plays in the path? What is its purpose as a teaching other than to reveal the emptiness of self/personality/subjective conscious agency? Put another way, is there a benefit on the path to thinking of the world as empty of essence in the same way that there is a benefit on the path to thinking of the self as empty of essence? If so, what is that benefit?
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:48 pmWhat the 3 samādhis are talking about is when an aspect of this understanding, an aspect of experience that has been understood, is meditated upon. You can think of it as taking an epistemological truth as a basis for meditation. The meditation is impermanent, as it can be entered into and left. The understanding (paññā) is too an impermanent fabrication, but in a different way.
I think the question still remains unanswered though: if signlessness/thoughtlessness is a characteristic of nirvana, then why wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana abide without signs/thoughts? Surely they can produce speech as a useful illusion to benefit mundane beings, but this would suggest to me that they don't need to use conventional language to think, especially since conventional language is subject to misrepresenting the nature of self. Unless you have a different interpretation of the meaning of signlessness other than thoughtlessness/beyond the representation of language?
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:50 pmWithout going into all the details, I think a lot of the difficulties go away if one takes the descriptions of cessation of various things as what happens at awakening, or by dwelling in arhattaphalasamādhi (as per Theravada, Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18, which I just happened to be listening to...).

https://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/

The Arahant (before the breakup of the body) then still has feelings, thoughts, etc, but without attachment. Other interpretations are possible, but I don't personally find them convincing.

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike, to be honest I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. I understand your comment about arahants having feelings/thoughts without attachment as a viable interpretation, but I'm not sure how that relates to your idea that cessation of perception/signlessness is somehow related to abiding in nirvana but isn't thoughtlessness (at least with signs)? That latter part is unclear to me relative to the questions at hand.
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:10 pm Greetings riceandcashews,

The arahant has what are known as suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ or "pure preparations" that are not addled by avijja.

When sankharanirodha is spoken of, it's the cessation of sankharas that are dependent upon avijja.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You are of the opinion that the state of cessation of perception/signlessness is actually a state that involves perception and signs (thoughts), just ones not colored with ignorance? Wouldn't that suggest that naming the states 'cessation of perception' and 'signlessness' is extraordinarily misleading? The states should instead be named 'cessation of delusional perception' and 'the absence of delusional signs' instead. For this reason, I at present feel disinclined to agree with your interpretation without evidence in the suttas supporting such an interpretation.
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

Pondera wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:03 am I’d say “no thoughts”. I also think that when one enters Nirodha Samapatti they think or utter a certain declaration, like “on this day I will utterly smash the spokes which bind me to the wheel of samsara.”

But don’t underestimate the power of thought. It’s one of the noble steps, as we all know. Arriving at Nirodha Samapatti is contingent on right thought and right speech.

It’s a very hard “short term” path to walk. Speaking at the right time. Evaluating states of mind at the right time. Maintaining mindfulness almost exclusively.

But - yes. It amounts to silence.

Even the calmest lake can be stirred up by a current from below. It is not possible for most mortals to maintain total silence all the time. The currents that exist in this world tend towards thought.
If I understand your response, you are in the camp that interprets an arahant as perpetually abiding in 'no thoughts' then? I think in some ways this is a natural interpretation of the suttas, but how do you deal with times in the suttas where thoughts are attributed to the buddha or passages like the one quoted by nirodh27? Would you chalk those up to skillful means within the suttas, and not reflective of the actual state of mind of arahants?
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:28 am they have thoughts when they need to talk etc but they dont think the contents of thoughts are real existing object and produce the thoughts/cling to that tought due to this ignorance..

their thought comes and go without trace and will not arise again by desire or inogrance but simply due to conditions to operate in world. i may be wrong too

if someone ask arhant about dhamma, it arises spontaneuosly but its a thought but they dont think it againa nd again when someone dont ask just to cling to feeling induced by that thoights.. the push nature is not there to originate thoughts based on desire/ignorance
This is interesting and a perspective I've considered as well. Perhaps arahants are normally thoughtless but thoughts may arise briefly as preparation for speech. I think the question in that context is if the first attainment of cessation of perception/signlessness reveals any specific insight, or is simply the first taste of the default state of an arahant when they aren't preparing speech. Or if perhaps it is interrelated with the insight into not-self as both a product of partial realization as well as contributing to further realization? In which case, the question remains what are those relationships?
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