Do arahants have thoughts?

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riceandcashews
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Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

Do arahants have thoughts? Whether you answer in the affirmative or negative, what then is the function of the state of signlessness/cessation of perception (a state I think I could correctly refer to as not-thinking)?

There are suttas where the Buddha is cited as having thoughts ('this thought occurred to me and so I now say it to you' is in many suttas)
The suttas cite papanca as ceasing in nirvana
It would seem that thoughts are fabrications.
The suttas reference nirvana as the end of all fabrications

There are several suttas that at minimum indicate that signlessness/cessation of perception is a state that can be used to attain nirvana, or even immediately reveals the truth of not-self. It may even be required for stream entry and arahantship on some readings of the suttas. In your view, what is the benefit/utility of signlessness/cessation of perception to one on the path? Is it necessary on the path, or optional? If necessary, why is it necessary? If helpful but not necessary, in what way is it helpful beyond any other meditative states?

If arahants have thoughts, then there would have to be a difference between thoughts that are papanca/fabrications and thoughts that aren't, given that arahants are without papanca/fabrications. How would you characterize the difference between these?

(I have not cited the relevant suttas here on the assumption that the above references are widely acknowledged - if they are not I can provide relevant citations as needed)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by Ceisiwr »

riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:10 pm Do arahants have thoughts? Whether you answer in the affirmative or negative, what then is the function of the state of signlessness/cessation of perception (a state I think I could correctly refer to as not-thinking)?

There are suttas where the Buddha is cited as having thoughts ('this thought occurred to me and so I now say it to you' is in many suttas)
The suttas cite papanca as ceasing in nirvana
It would seem that thoughts are fabrications.
The suttas reference nirvana as the end of all fabrications

There are several suttas that at minimum indicate that signlessness/cessation of perception is a state that can be used to attain nirvana, or even immediately reveals the truth of not-self. It may even be required for stream entry and arahantship on some readings of the suttas. In your view, what is the benefit/utility of signlessness/cessation of perception to one on the path? Is it necessary on the path, or optional? If necessary, why is it necessary? If helpful but not necessary, in what way is it helpful beyond any other meditative states?

If arahants have thoughts, then there would have to be a difference between thoughts that are papanca/fabrications and thoughts that aren't, given that arahants are without papanca/fabrications. How would you characterize the difference between these?

(I have not cited the relevant suttas here on the assumption that the above references are widely acknowledged - if they are not I can provide relevant citations as needed)
Yes Buddhas and Arahants have thoughts. If they didn’t, the Buddha wouldn’t be able to say “I am now old” or have conversations with people. Since he did say “I am now old” and had conversations with people, he did have thoughts. What Buddhas and Arahants lack is being deluded by thoughts, concepts, ideas etc. Regarding the Emptiness, Signless and Wishless/Nothingness samadhi’s these are related to how a person awakens. They are all aspects of Nibbana. If someone takes the absence of self and what belongs to a self as an object then that is the Emptiness Samadhi. If they take dukkha as their object then that is the Wishless/Nothingness Samadhi. If they take impermanence as their object then that is the Signless samadhi. This is according to Theravada Buddhism. Other traditions frame it differently. For example for the Sarvastivadins the Signless is via taking dukkha as object. Either way, these samadhis are impermanent but they work by taking an aspect of Nibbana that the Arahant has awoken to. They come at the culmination of the path. Through the path you come to know dependent origination, and through dependent origination you know Nibbana through either the emptiness of self and what belongs to a self in experience, the emptiness of all signs in experience (earth, air, sun, moon, arising, ceasing, infinite space etc) or the emptiness of anything worth having or adhering to.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:10 pm Do arahants have thoughts?...

... It would seem that thoughts are fabrications.
The suttas reference nirvana as the end of all fabrications

... If arahants have thoughts, then there would have to be a difference between thoughts that are papanca/fabrications and thoughts that aren't, given that arahants are without papanca/fabrications. How would you characterize the difference between these?...
Yes and yes IMO.

I think there are thoughts (the Arahants don't 'have' thoughts because they're free from any acquisitions). What ceases is all sankharas which I understand as "(intentional) making up", the (intentional) fabrication of permanence and self.
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riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

Ceisiwr wrote:
If arahants have thoughts, then would you not consider thoughts a type of fabrication? And would you not consider thoughts a type of papanca? Would you say ALL thoughts are non-fabrication and non-papanca, or that some thoughts are fabrications or papanca and some thoughts are non-fabrication and non-papanca? If the latter, then what differentiates a thought from being a fabrication v. a non-fabrication? What differentiates a thought from being papanca v. non-papanca?

If arahants have thought, but are not deluded by thoughts, what is the delusion regarding thoughts that arahants are not subject to?

And second, you say that signlessness is an aspect of nirvana that an arahant focuses on. First, if nirvana was signless, then wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana be without signs (thoughts) perpetually, as they perpetually abide in nirvana? Second, it seems like non-arahants could attain signlessness, as attaining signlessness as a state is not equivalent to arahantship. So we could say that a stream-enterer can attain signlessness. An arahant can too (if they don't perpetually abide in it, at least), but an arahant has fully released the fetters while the stream-enterer still has a ways to go. Last, if signlessness is only a temporary meditative state even for arahants, then what is the benefit of attaining it for people on the path (as opposed to other meditative states)? The suttas would seem to indicate that great insight comes from it, but it's not clear at present what that would be if it isn't itself equal to the state of nirvana that arahants abide in.
riceandcashews
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by riceandcashews »

mjaviem wrote:
Would you characterize 'intention/fabrication' as action emerging from belief in a self instead of insight into not-self? I suspect so.

Given that, what are your views on the state of signlessness/cessation of perception/themelessness? Is it necessary on the path, or optional? If necessary, why? If optional but helpful, how is it helpful beyond other meditative states?
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:10 pm Would you characterize 'intention/fabrication' as action emerging from belief in a self instead of insight into not-self? I suspect so.
...
Fabrications/sankharas are not action IMO. Action, (I mean intentional action), is kamma. Sankharas are "making up" in my understanding. It's not merely a 'belief' but a lack of understanding about the truth so the making-up is everywhere building up everything.
riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:10 pm ...
Given that, what are your views on the state of signlessness/cessation of perception/themelessness? Is it necessary on the path, or optional? If necessary, why? If optional but helpful, how is it helpful beyond other meditative states?
It seems final insight requires reaching the cessation of perception first. I don't know why but it's in the suttas
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:00 pm
If arahants have thoughts, then would you not consider thoughts a type of fabrication? And would you not consider thoughts a type of papanca? Would you say ALL thoughts are non-fabrication and non-papanca, or that some thoughts are fabrications or papanca and some thoughts are non-fabrication and non-papanca? If the latter, then what differentiates a thought from being a fabrication v. a non-fabrication? What differentiates a thought from being papanca v. non-papanca?
Thoughts are fabrications, yes. Meditations are fabrications too, as is speaking or walking. Papañca comes after sañña and vitakka. It's laid out as vedanā > sañña > vitakka > papañca. Papañca in the suttas is framed in terms of self-notions. It is where sañña and vitakka run wild, so to speak. They become profuse (papañca meaning diffuseness). One gets lost in a tangle of conceptual thinking which, in our ignorance, we take to be real and true. One has a hedonic experience (vedanā) which we conceptually label (sañña) and then think about (vitakka) and then we run with it (papañca). We have a hedonic experience which we label as "my wife". We then further think about how she is "my wife" and then believe that when we die, we will be reunited again in heaven as we have immortal souls (papañca). For Buddhas and Arahants it stops at vedanā > sañña > vitakka. That's my imperfect simple explanation of it.
If arahants have thought, but are not deluded by thoughts, what is the delusion regarding thoughts that arahants are not subject to?
That the thoughts or what they relate to are permanent, sukha and atta. Buddhas and Arahants see things differently. For them, they perceive impermanence, dukkha and the emptiness of self. They have to conceptually think and use conventional words, but they aren't fooled by those concepts and words. They use them without adhering to them IMO.
And second, you say that signlessness is an aspect of nirvana that an arahant focuses on. First, if nirvana was signless, then wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana be without signs (thoughts) perpetually, as they perpetually abide in nirvana? Second, it seems like non-arahants could attain signlessness, as attaining signlessness as a state is not equivalent to arahantship. So we could say that a stream-enterer can attain signlessness. An arahant can too (if they don't perpetually abide in it, at least), but an arahant has fully released the fetters while the stream-enterer still has a ways to go. Last, if signlessness is only a temporary meditative state even for arahants, then what is the benefit of attaining it for people on the path (as opposed to other meditative states)? The suttas would seem to indicate that great insight comes from it, but it's not clear at present what that would be if it isn't itself equal to the state of nirvana that arahants abide in.
One can understand and view the world as being ultimately empty of self or what belongs to a self but can still use the concepts of self and belongings. Likewise, an Arahant can understand and view the world as being ultimately empty of "things" such as earth element, water element, houses, stars, galaxies etc but still course in those concepts without being fooled by them. The ultimate understanding is that of no arising, no ceasing, no persisting, no changing, no coming, no going, no here, no there, no far shore, no near shore, no earth, no moon, no self, no other. When that is understood, one still thinks or speaks in terms of arising, ceasing, persisting, changing, coming, going, here, there, a far shore, a near shore, earth, moon, self and other. What the 3 samādhis are talking about is when an aspect of this understanding, an aspect of experience that has been understood, is meditated upon. You can think of it as taking an epistemological truth as a basis for meditation. The meditation is impermanent, as it can be entered into and left. The understanding (paññā) is too an impermanent fabrication, but in a different way. There is debate as to if the sotāpanna can attain these samādhis. The Visuddhimagga, representing the Mahavihāravāsin point of view, says that they can attain them. In comparison the Vimuttimagga, which represents the Abhayagiri vihāra point of view IMO (a now dead strand of Theravāda which accepted both the Tipiṭaka and the Mahāyāna) argues that they cannot, as the sotāpanna has not even achieved Jhāna yet.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:00 pmFirst, if nirvana was signless, then wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana be without signs (thoughts) perpetually, as they perpetually abide in nirvana?
Without going into all the details, I think a lot of the difficulties go away if one takes the descriptions of cessation of various things as what happens at awakening, or by dwelling in arhattaphalasamādhi (as per Theravada, Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18, which I just happened to be listening to...).

https://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/

The Arahant (before the breakup of the body) then still has feelings, thoughts, etc, but without attachment. Other interpretations are possible, but I don't personally find them convincing.

:heart:
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:50 pm
riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:00 pmFirst, if nirvana was signless, then wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana be without signs (thoughts) perpetually, as they perpetually abide in nirvana?
Without going into all the details, I think a lot of the difficulties go away if one takes the descriptions of cessation of various things as what happens at awakening, or by dwelling in arhattaphalasamādhi (as per Theravada, Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18, https://seeingthroughthenet.net/[/url, ... s-analayo/, which I just happened to be listening to...). The Arahant (before the breakup of the body) then still has feelings, thoughts, etc, but without attachment. Other interpretations are possible, but I don't personally find them convincing.

:heart:
Mike
The link didn't work for me.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:30 pm ...

The link didn't work for me.
Nor me.
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings riceandcashews,

The arahant has what are known as suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ or "pure preparations" that are not addled by avijja.

When sankharanirodha is spoken of, it's the cessation of sankharas that are dependent upon avijja.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:30 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:50 pm
riceandcashews wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:00 pmFirst, if nirvana was signless, then wouldn't an arahant abiding in nirvana be without signs (thoughts) perpetually, as they perpetually abide in nirvana?
Without going into all the details, I think a lot of the difficulties go away if one takes the descriptions of cessation of various things as what happens at awakening, or by dwelling in arhattaphalasamādhi (as per Theravada, Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18, https://seeingthroughthenet.net/[/url, ... s-analayo/, which I just happened to be listening to...). The Arahant (before the breakup of the body) then still has feelings, thoughts, etc, but without attachment. Other interpretations are possible, but I don't personally find them convincing.

:heart:
Mike
The link didn't work for me.
Hmm, sorry, can't edit the original
Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons - See #18,
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/

:heart:
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by mjaviem »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:10 pm ...
The arahant has what are known as suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ or "pure preparations" that are not addled by avijja.

When sankharanirodha is spoken of, it's the cessation of sankharas that are dependent upon avijja.
...
You really think there can be "preparing" with true wisdom? I think not. It's only dukkha which is "prepared". What is "prepared" is dukkha and it's dukkha because it's not "unprepared" .
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

You're taking a generalization and mistakenly applying it to the arahant.

The preparations in question are "pure", because they're not laced with avijja. They are simply the thoughts etc. of an arahant, which you cannot explain otherwise without such a concept.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants have thoughts?

Post by mjaviem »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 pm ,...
The preparations in question are "pure", because they're not laced with avijja. They are simply the thoughts etc. of an arahant, which you cannot explain otherwise without such a concept.
...
Then, they can't be preparations. They must be "just so", just "thoughts, etc"
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