Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

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Lucas Oliveira
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Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

I think I read here on the forum that Ajahn Chah claimed he was not an Arahant..

Could anyone confirm this information?

Some people say that Ajahn Cha was an Arahant and that some of his disciples are also..

I think these people have great respect for their Masters and have great admiration and that's why they make such a statement..

Honestly I don't know and I don't want to say yes or no..

But I think there is a big gap between being a good teacher and being an Arahant...

So we are lucky to have Great Teachers, Great Masters in our time...

Now to be an Arahant, I find it difficult to make that claim.

:anjali:
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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:08 pm I think I read here on the forum that Ajahn Chah claimed he was not an Arahant..

Could anyone confirm this information?

Some people say that Ajahn Cha was an Arahant and that some of his disciples are also..

I think these people have great respect for their Masters and have great admiration and that's why they make such a statement..

Honestly I don't know and I don't want to say yes or no..

But I think there is a big gap between being a good teacher and being an Arahant...

So we are lucky to have Great Teachers, Great Masters in our time...

Now to be an Arahant, I find it difficult to make that claim.

:anjali:
One is not supposed to declare their attainments.

That said, I believe Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun were both Arahants, and that various esteemed monks from the Thai Forrest tradition were likewise Arahants or very close.

Whether or not they were, their conduct is that which inspires us to believe that is how Arahants dwelt.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Sam Vara
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Sam Vara »

The most informed account is, I think, in Ajahn Jayasaro's biography Stillness Flowing. It's worth reading this book if you want to delve further into this topic. But the basic point he makes is that there can be no conclusive proof (indeed, how could there be proof for any of us unenlightened beings?) but there are several things which make the claim that he was enlightened quite plausible.
In the case of Luang Por, there is much evidence that his actions and speech did correspond to those of a liberated being as revealed in the Buddha's discourses. Although he did not proclaim his liberation, it seems reasonable to assume from certain words by which he is known to have referred to himself, such as "finished", and "nothing left", for example, that he felt assured of it. He was also recognised as liberated by the greatest of of his contemporaries in the Thai Forest Tradition. Luang Ta Maha Bua, the acknowledged leader of the tradition, was forthright on the point more than once, declaring, for example, that "Luang Por Chah is a diamond of the first water". While none of these points is a proof, each one has provided grounds for Buddhist practitioners to establish a reasoned faith in Luang Por as a 'Noble One'
Jayasaro knew him well, of course, and it is reckoned that the best way to know if defilements are present in someone is to live close by them over a long period of time. He makes the point that monastics are able to declare attainments to fellow monks, but Luang Por chose not to do so because word would spread beyond the monastery due to lots of monks disrobing or ordaining for short periods, and this would create a cult of personality.

Some people might also be interested in the fact that as Luang Por's illness progressed, his behaviour deteriorated and he often acted in ways which were inconsistent with higher attainments.

A friend of mine knew Ajahn Chah well, and lived with him for several years. He features in Stillness Flowing quite a lot. He told me that he considered Ajahn to be an arahant, or very close to being one. "Let's say that he didn't have a lot more suffering to get through..."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:08 pm I think I read here on the forum that Ajahn Chah claimed he was not an Arahant..

Could anyone confirm this information?

Some people say that Ajahn Cha was an Arahant and that some of his disciples are also..

I think these people have great respect for their Masters and have great admiration and that's why they make such a statement..

Honestly I don't know and I don't want to say yes or no..

But I think there is a big gap between being a good teacher and being an Arahant...

So we are lucky to have Great Teachers, Great Masters in our time...

Now to be an Arahant, I find it difficult to make that claim.

:anjali:
We can't know. There is a story of him becoming quite angry and aggressive once towards another monk. When that happened, I have no idea. He also had a nicotine addiction if I remember correctly. If that is something compatible with Arahantship is another question, though I don't know if he eventually gave this up later on in life.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 pm He makes the point that monastics are able to declare attainments to fellow monks, but Luang Por chose not to do so because word would spread beyond the monastery due to lots of monks disrobing or ordaining for short periods, and this would create a cult of personality.
Despite this, there does feel like a mini cult of personality around him at times.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Then..

my doubt was if there was any text in which Ajahn Chah stated that he was not an Arahant..

I thought I read this information on this forum.

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
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Sam Vara
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:16 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 pm He makes the point that monastics are able to declare attainments to fellow monks, but Luang Por chose not to do so because word would spread beyond the monastery due to lots of monks disrobing or ordaining for short periods, and this would create a cult of personality.
Despite this, there does feel like a mini cult of personality around him at times.
Yes, there definitely is. I suppose one response is that the cult would have been far greater had he declared special attainments.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Sam Vara »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:30 pm Then..

my doubt was if there was any text in which Ajahn Chah stated that he was not an Arahant..

I thought I read this information on this forum.

:anjali:
I've never seen this, but I think he tended to avoid questions about his attainments as useless speculation. He told people to put them aside and concentrate on their own hearts. So maybe that's what was meant.
Jack19990101
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Not only Ajahn Chah - there is never an arahants who would declare 'I am an arahant'.

Even with stream entry, while one is tasting Nibbana, he would not declare "I am a stream winner."

He might do so once nibbana is 'closed', it would be possible to speak in that pattern.

Semantic aside & Speculative -

It is not a cliché, nor a humbleness, nor a personal trait choice.
in context of nibbana, that thinking/speaking pattern is probably as strange & awkward as enjoying chewing glass.
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Joe.c »

Can’t analyze death person. But one can analyze the alive disciples directly and see whether they have understood or not. But make sure you have your basic foundation such as precepts and sutta.

If one say “I am an arahant”, just run away as fast as possible.

But if one say,” Birth has ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’”

Then, time to test/check this person, check the sila, samadhi and panna. Might need to look for long period though whether they have any moha, dosa and lobha.

If he is a true arahant, please don’t leave him until you enter the stream. 😀
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Bundokji
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Re: Was Ajahn Chah an Arahant?

Post by Bundokji »

If he is an Arahant, then encountering his teachings is very good luck. I listened to his recorded dhamma talks in the past. He is definitely capable of presenting the teachings in a simple way.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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