can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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dawn of peace
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can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
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Sam Vara
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Presumably anyone voluntarily taking part in pornography would be giving tacit consent for fantasies and masturbation. The mind boggles at how you would otherwise seek consent to fantasise about someone sexually, but I guess it would involve you in some interesting conversations!

Overall, the precept on sexual misconduct is quite vague. Kāmesu-micchācāra means misconduct relating to sensuality, which is difficult in setting boundaries. When the term is explained in the suttas, it is usually expanded to mean sexual relations with women who are under various forms of protection. So pornography and fantasies would, strictly speaking, be OK.

Overall, though, you might want to consider the effects of those things rather than whether they are examples of formal rule-breaking. How do they make you feel, long-term? Are they associated with a sense of freedom, dignity, and settledness in your life?
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:52 am

Overall, though, you might want to consider the effects of those things rather than whether they are examples of formal rule-breaking. How do they make you feel, long-term? Are they associated with a sense of freedom, dignity, and settledness in your life?
Also that you don’t really know under what conditions the porn “stars” are being filmed under. A lot of porn is made due to coercion, or to do with drugs. Sometimes even their age. The porn industry is rife with unwholesome and destructive behaviour.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Ceisiwr »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Unless you have taken the 8 precepts or are ordained then masturbation and fantasizing about others doesn’t break the precept on sex. As for porn, it’s best avoided IMO.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Better not play even a second with such thoughts and border acts, good householder. Intention, thoughts, are the roots of verbal and bodily kamma, yet already akusala Kamma. Feeding Nivaranas, hindrances, keeps one not only in the circle but right downwardly.

Dogs fist just play, later kill. So not even playing.

Again, the kamma of a gamer is not different like that of an actor. Not abound the fetters one is still able to do grave missdeeds. Good to fear it a lot to possible act as rapper. Prison and shame, or beaten to death, are the most lightest effects of conducting wrong in the world.

There are more benefical thoughts and hobbies, leading upwardly and beyond. All glory for one going after the Uposatha of the Noble Ones.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:01 am Better not play even a second with such thoughts and border acts, good householder. Intention, thoughts, are the roots of verbal and bodily kamma, yet already akusala Kamma. Feeding Nivaranas, hindrances, keeps one not only in the circle but right downwardly.

Dogs fist just play, later kill. So not even playing.

Again, the kamma of a gamer is not different like that of an actor. Not abound the fetters one is still able to do grave missdeeds. Good to fear it a lot to possible act as rapper. Prison and shame, or beaten to death, are the most lightest effects of conducting wrong in the world.

There are more benefical thoughts and hobbies, leading upwardly and beyond. All glory for one going after the Uposatha of the Noble Ones.
A householder doesn’t have to stop masturbating. A householder doesn’t even have to aim for stream-entry. Someone is still a Buddhist if they only keep the 5 precepts and aim for a better rebirth, despite what some moderns think.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:22 am
Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:01 am Better not play even a second with such thoughts and border acts, good householder. Intention, thoughts, are the roots of verbal and bodily kamma, yet already akusala Kamma. Feeding Nivaranas, hindrances, keeps one not only in the circle but right downwardly.

Dogs fist just play, later kill. So not even playing.

Again, the kamma of a gamer is not different like that of an actor. Not abound the fetters one is still able to do grave missdeeds. Good to fear it a lot to possible act as rapper. Prison and shame, or beaten to death, are the most lightest effects of conducting wrong in the world.

There are more benefical thoughts and hobbies, leading upwardly and beyond. All glory for one going after the Uposatha of the Noble Ones.
A householder doesn’t have to stop masturbating. A householder doesn’t even have to aim for stream-entry. Someone is still a Buddhist if they only keep the 5 precepts and aim for a better rebirth, despite what some moderns think.
So good householder got such ideas on kamma and path from the commentaries? One not striving for stream, not having the Gems as refuge, of course doesn't need to go after abounding the nivaranas and akusala, good householder, is free to do even all misdeeds. Nobody can or do force anybody, yet the question was raised in Dhamma wheel in the virtue section of the path.
Not in Samsarawheel, right?

One is Sila, again, another kamma. Solved the kamma issue (e.g. right resolve) no troubles with Sila either.

Doesn't good householder think it's quite unbenefical to tell "you don't need to act kusala to co-nourish on a Noble Tradition". What's the glory of being a unvirtuose Buddhist? Whatjs the glory of one saying I keep the precepts when others see him later watch porns or "play". That wouldn't lead to pamojja on the path and even one's partner would feel ceated if getting aware of such.

Why pulling people down when they are up to higher, having good thoughts of shame? To be not left alone?

It would be quite shameful when it spreads around that Buddhist approve, encourage and praise porns and masturbating, wouldn't it? Who likes to be part of such Parisa?
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by confusedlayman »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:01 am
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Better not play even a second with such thoughts and border acts, good householder. Intention, thoughts, are the roots of verbal and bodily kamma, yet already akusala Kamma. Feeding Nivaranas, hindrances, keeps one not only in the circle but right downwardly.

Dogs fist just play, later kill. So not even playing.

Again, the kamma of a gamer is not different like that of an actor. Not abound the fetters one is still able to do grave missdeeds. Good to fear it a lot to possible act as rapper. Prison and shame, or beaten to death, are the most lightest effects of conducting wrong in the world.

There are more benefical thoughts and hobbies, leading upwardly and beyond. All glory for one going after the Uposatha of the Noble Ones.
well said
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:39 am So good householder got such ideas on kamma and path from the commentaries? One not striving for stream, not having the Gems as refuge, of course doesn't need to go after abounding the nivaranas and akusala, good householder, is free to do even all misdeeds. Nobody can or do force anybody, yet the question was raised in Dhamma wheel in the virtue section of the path.
Not in Samsarawheel, right?
No, from the suttas although I don’t think the commentaries disagree. Masturbation doesn’t break the 3rd precept. On stream-entry not everyone will want that or even be ready for that. The Buddha taught to a wide range of people. Lay people who simply keep the 5 precepts and want a better rebirth are still part of the 4 fold community of Buddhists. Someone shouldn’t be made to feel less of a Buddhist or morally bankrupt if they wish to live that way. It’s still in keeping with the Dhamma. We are all at different stages. Trying to (mistakenly) shame people who aren’t ready to or who don’t want to renounce the world isn’t wise.
Doesn't good householder think it's quite unbenefical to tell "you don't need to act kusala to co-nourish on a Noble Tradition". What's the glory of being a unvirtuose Buddhist? Whatjs the glory of one saying I keep the precepts when others see him later watch porns or "play". That wouldn't lead to pamojja on the path and even one's partner would feel ceated if getting aware of such.
Someone isn’t being “unvirtuous” in terms of Dhamma if they masturbate. They aren’t being “unvirtuous” by watching porn either, as long as it involves consensual adults and is legal. Some couples watch porn together. Some wives are fine with their husbands watching it (although, as I’ve said, there are good reasons for still not watching it).
Why pulling people down when they are up to higher, having good thoughts of shame? To be not left alone?

It would be quite shameful when it spreads around that Buddhist approve, encourage and praise porns and masturbating, wouldn't it? Who likes to be part of such Parisa?
There is a difference between saying masturbation doesn’t break basic Buddhist morality and praising it. Sense restraint is a good thing. Sense restraint is better than masturbating. Likewise Jhana is better than sense restraint. A lay Buddhist isn’t less of a Buddhist is they don’t practice or aim for those two things. Someone is still a virtuous Buddhist if they have a partner, have sex, masturbate, watch films, enjoys music and plays video games.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:01 am
Dogs fist just play, later kill.
That's a niche taste in porn, for sure...
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Johann »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:48 am
Johann wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:39 am So good householder got such ideas on kamma and path from the commentaries? One not striving for stream, not having the Gems as refuge, of course doesn't need to go after abounding the nivaranas and akusala, good householder, is free to do even all misdeeds. Nobody can or do force anybody, yet the question was raised in Dhamma wheel in the virtue section of the path.
Not in Samsarawheel, right?
No, from the suttas although I don’t think the commentaries disagree. Masturbation doesn’t break the 3rd precept. On stream-entry not everyone will want that or even be ready for that. The Buddha taught to a wide range of people. Lay people who simply keep the 5 precepts and want a better rebirth are still part of the 4 fold community of Buddhists. Someone shouldn’t be made to feel less of a Buddhist or morally bankrupt if they wish to live that way. It’s still in keeping with the Dhamma. We are all at different stages. Trying to (mistakenly) shame people who aren’t ready to or who don’t want to renounce the world isn’t wise.
Doesn't good householder think it's quite unbenefical to tell "you don't need to act kusala to co-nourish on a Noble Tradition". What's the glory of being a unvirtuose Buddhist? Whatjs the glory of one saying I keep the precepts when others see him later watch porns or "play". That wouldn't lead to pamojja on the path and even one's partner would feel ceated if getting aware of such.
Someone isn’t being “unvirtuous” in terms of Dhamma if they masturbate. They aren’t being “unvirtuous” by watching porn either, as long as it involves consensual adults and is legal. Some couples watch porn together. Some wives are fine with their husbands watching it (although, as I’ve said, there are good reasons for still not watching it).
Why pulling people down when they are up to higher, having good thoughts of shame? To be not left alone?

It would be quite shameful when it spreads around that Buddhist approve, encourage and praise porns and masturbating, wouldn't it? Who likes to be part of such Parisa?
There is a difference between saying masturbation doesn’t break basic Buddhist morality and praising it. Sense restraint is a good thing. Sense restraint is better than masturbating. Likewise Jhana is better than sense restraint. A lay Buddhist isn’t less of a Buddhist is they don’t practice or aim for those two things. Someone is still a virtuous Buddhist if they have a partner, have sex, masturbate, watch films, enjoys music and plays video games.
Good householder,

Atma didn't say that such might one cause conflict and disharmony, harm, and imbalance of duties, within ones community (Sila), yet the industry and increasing crimes around improper consume of sensuality show a different. It's the community of your. Atma couldn't, once still a householder, find any identification with such as watching shameful or talk public on shameful...

Yet, whether a common moral of a community can life with de-generation approve or not, is one thing, that such are akusala conducts by thoughts, words and deeds is another.

The fact that the global human moral sinks and sensual attachment highly increases doesn't mean that the timeless Dhamma increases.

If asking even your parents about talks, thoughts, or shows on such, they will report it as tabu.

In traditional countries, praiseworthy, even stars, if appearing to sexy, whould be blamed and have to bear consequences. Public talks on such issues are shameful.

Yours doesn't live under good conditions and soon will infect all other parts. It's not at all praisworthy to approach a topic from the wrong side, and one should remember his "liberality" when reading news of misconducts...

Btw. sex with animal seems to be no crime in many western countries as well, as long as not harming or forcing...

"Sorry", but no virtuous person, even if still himself not free of addiction, would be pleased if it spreads around that "Buddhist" have no line of shame. It might, it does, how ever, sell, outside.

And yes, one can be also even a Bhikkhu... and one can assume the student and teacher relation quickly.

What does good householder think, how the Buddha would have answered such question? "No. But restrain is better. Better then restrain is Jhana..."

Would he believe that surely no lay person would ever had the idea to even ask such, or let fellows know of such things?

Again, it's Dhammawheel, not Fun-wheel, Sila section of the path.

And even if one breaks precepts, if still refuge, isn't out. But refuge isn't taken toward those without sense restrain, gamers, porn-watcher, music-addicted. If having taken refuge in a Buddha praising sensuality and a mastubating Sangha, and a Dhamma that does not encourage to go for long term happiness, that it's sure that such isn't a threefold refuge.

The Sublime Buddha had left it simple but deep: misconduct in sense-pleasure (harming society, not proper repaying, causing fear, disgust, unrest...), and he encouraged his lay refugees at least to follow the sample of the lay non-returner.

What does he think, the good householder, wouldn't right conceit leead upwardly while a follish conceit, that takes a stand where being, just burdens all around and easy lead to wrong?

Why not helping each other to go upwardly, even if by oneself not capable yet? Proper pamojja and approve, with-joy leads toward liberation either, and one will soon follow ones good children.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Bundokji »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
The precepts are interconnected. Masturbating while thinking of someone else's partner is akin to steeling and lying, considering the sense of ownership associated with partnerships that have sex as primary component. In general, ignorant action has "being caught" or "being watched" as an underlying motivation. Wisdom on the other hand has openness or not hiding as a main factor of which training in sila can be of great value.
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
This also has to do with what is hidden and what is permitted as an underlying motivation or as a criteria. It is the belief that i might do something and get away with it. Kamma does not work this way: actions have consequences regardless of being watched or consented by a third party.
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
It seems that the concern/obsession in being justified and having the precepts as rules and rituals are interconnected. I would argue that if one is still not free from such obsessions, it is better not to take the precepts. While that would not make one "officially Buddhist", it would show respect to the teachings, and would allow one to follow sensual pleasures without adding more neurosis to it.
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
As per the above.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by dawn of peace »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:52 am
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Presumably anyone voluntarily taking part in pornography would be giving tacit consent for fantasies and masturbation. The mind boggles at how you would otherwise seek consent to fantasise about someone sexually, but I guess it would involve you in some interesting conversations!
how about people who fantasizing about strangers or their friends or masturbating on the pictures of celebrities or public figures in general?
Last edited by dawn of peace on Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Sam Vara »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:52 am
dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
Presumably anyone voluntarily taking part in pornography would be giving tacit consent for fantasies and masturbation. The mind boggles at how you would otherwise seek consent to fantasise about someone sexually, but I guess it would involve you in some interesting conversations!
how about people who fantasizing about strangers or their friends or masturbating on the pictures of celebrities or public figures in general?
Well, I guess you would have to fantasise about someone or something; I've never heard of a "formless masturbation". (But I'm ©️ that phrase!) The same applies - no formal breach of precept, but some would consider it unwise if one values celibacy.
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Re: can watching porn,masturbation and sexual fantasy against third precept?

Post by Radix »

dawn of peace wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:34 am does masturbating while thinking of some one's partner against the third precept?
is it immoral to have sexual fantasies without the subject knowledge or consent?
it is against the third precept to watch porn while masturbating if the porn star is married?
should masturbation while fantasize someone require consent?
This should be a no-brainer.

If you wouldn't tell your parents about it, don't do it.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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