Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

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KeepCalm
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Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Dear Meritorious Devotees,

Does anyone know if there are any Monks or Anagarika Nuns in the UK (England) that are kind and keeping good vinaya/precepts?

I live in Essex which is near London but I am willing to travel within reason...

I am also interested in making a connection with Monastics and Upāsaka (Devout lay followers) from other countries as well.

Mind how you go,

KeepCalm

(Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.. please move if there is a better section to post it in).
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Sam Vara »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:16 am Dear Meritorious Devotees,

Does anyone know if there are any Monks or Anagarika Nuns in the UK (England) that are kind and keeping good vinaya/precepts?

I live in Essex which is near London but I am willing to travel within reason...

I am also interested in making a connection with Monastics and Upāsaka (Devout lay followers) from other countries as well.

Mind how you go,

Peter (KeepCalm).

(Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.. please move if there is a better section to post it in).
I guess it depends on what you mean by good vinaya, but Amaravati is just along the M25 from you:
https://amaravati.org/

and Chithurst a little further:
https://www.cittaviveka.org/

Both are part of the Thai forest Sangha, and both - from my limited knowledge of small viharas elsewhere - take vinaya very seriously.

You might also want to trek up the M11 to Cambridge, where I knew of several smaller viharas. Try googling it and definitely phone first, as the situation there was more volatile with places opening and closing. Mainly Thai with few English speakers.

Also worth checking out is:
https://www.oxfordbuddhavihara.org.uk/

I have not visited, but I have spent time on retreat at their off-shoot branch in Lydney, in the Forest of Dean (very hard to get to without a car!) and they impressed me a lot.
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:47 am
I guess it depends on what you mean by good vinaya, but Amaravati is just along the M25 from you:
https://amaravati.org/

and Chithurst a little further:
https://www.cittaviveka.org/

Both are part of the Thai forest Sangha, and both - from my limited knowledge of small viharas elsewhere - take vinaya very seriously.
One problem I have with Amaravati etc. Is I don't believe they do follow correct vinaya. They allow eating beyond the time i.e. chocolate, cheese, and allow soya milk. I have questioned some Bhantes about this and they shrug it off like it is no big deal but to me it is a big deal. If it is causing division amongst different groups of monks/nuns/traditions then its a big deal. I don't believe there is a group of senior Sangha members deep in the Forrest of Thailand somewhere deciding on the finer points of the vinaya. I beleive Lord Buddha decided on the finer points of the vinaya, it is quite explicit, exact, perfect in fact and no room is there for manoeuvrer. I dare say there are some Monks and Nuns there who are practising well though- in accordance with the vinaya./precepts-but I consider there is a systemic problem with vinaya observance there.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:47 am You might also want to trek up the M11 to Cambridge, where I knew of several smaller viharas. Try googling it and definitely phone first, as the situation there was more volatile with places opening and closing. Mainly Thai with few English speakers.
That sounds very interesting, if you have any further details please?
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:47 am Also worth checking out is:

https://www.oxfordbuddhavihara.org.uk/

I have not visited, but I have spent time on retreat at their off-shoot branch in Lydney, in the Forest of Dean (very hard to get to without a car!) and they impressed me a lot.
Hmm looks very interesting but they ask for donations on their Homepage off the bat. Is that allowable? Genuine question. I know Thanisaro Bhikhu doesn't do this (for a reason I guess..?)

Maybe I sound like the Temple Police I just want to find Monks / Nuns etc. following precepts/vianaya etc. nicely also I would like to see more synergy between different groups of monks/nuns/aupasikas etc. In fact I would like to see just one Sangha personally. Why not? -This is what Lord Buddha said we should do, no? ..

KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Sam Vara »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:00 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:47 am
I guess it depends on what you mean by good vinaya, but Amaravati is just along the M25 from you:
https://amaravati.org/

and Chithurst a little further:
https://www.cittaviveka.org/

Both are part of the Thai forest Sangha, and both - from my limited knowledge of small viharas elsewhere - take vinaya very seriously.
One problem I have with Amaravati etc. Is I don't believe they do follow correct vinaya. They allow eating beyond the time i.e. chocolate, cheese, and allow soya milk. I have questioned some Bhantes about this and they shrug it off like it is no big deal but to me it is a big deal. If it is causing division amongst different groups of monks/nuns/traditions then its a big deal. I don't believe there is a group of senior Sangha members deep in the Forrest of Thailand somewhere deciding on the finer points of the vinaya. I beleive Lord Buddha decided on the finer points of the vinaya, it is quite explicit, exact, perfect in fact and no room is there for manoeuvrer. I dare say there are some Monks and Nuns there who are practising well though- in accordance with the vinaya./precepts-but I consider there is a systemic problem with vinaya observance there.
Yes, understood. I have heard some monastics talk about the chocolate and cheese issue as being a primarily Western trick to circumvent the rule about eating after mid-day. But I have also heard some explain how it really doesn't breach vinaya. I guess it's just a matter of personal choice in the onlooker...

As for Cambridge, I've just googled it and the two I was associated with appear to have closed, unfortunately. There is a Sri Lankan temple at 214 Cromwell Rd, Cambridge CB1 3EQ, tel. 01223 240648. I've visited a few times, and liked it, but it's very small and a bit of a cultural centre rather than something designed to help westerners with their practice. And all the Cambridge ones, and the Forest of Dean offshoot of the Oxford Centre, seemed to be more lax about vinaya than Amaravati!

So I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but I wish you all the best in your search. :anjali:
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Thank you so much for trying to help me!

:anjali:
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:35 pm
Yes, understood. I have heard some monastics talk about the chocolate and cheese issue as being a primarily Western trick to circumvent the rule about eating after mid-day. But I have also heard some explain how it really doesn't breach vinaya. I guess it's just a matter of personal choice in the onlooker...
Hmmm.. I don't think so. I think something either breaks vinaya or it doesn't.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:52 pm Hmmm.. I don't think so. I think something either breaks vinaya or it doesn't.
And the fact that this keeps raising its ugly head over & over & over & over & over again would suggest to me that it does...
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Sam Vara »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:35 pm
Yes, understood. I have heard some monastics talk about the chocolate and cheese issue as being a primarily Western trick to circumvent the rule about eating after mid-day. But I have also heard some explain how it really doesn't breach vinaya. I guess it's just a matter of personal choice in the onlooker...
Hmmm.. I don't think so. I think something either breaks vinaya or it doesn't.
In many cases, I don't think there is any way of knowing. We don't know exactly what was meant by a particular rule, and even if we believe that the Buddha or early Sangha had a clear unequivocal rule, there are now many situations which could not possibly have been foreseen at the time.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

I've heard otherwise. I've heard it is quite explicit. Leaves no room for manoeuvrer at all..

And rumour has it Lord Buddha could see future events, how things would unfold...

:anjali:
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Sam Vara »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:24 pm I've heard otherwise. I've heard it is quite explicit. Leaves no room for manoeuvrer at all..

And rumour has it Lord Buddha could see future events, how things would unfold...

:anjali:
Well, here's an example of what I mean. Lots of the rules have an exception in them: "except when ill". How is illness defined? Severe bronchitis would count. But what about 'flu? A minor cold? Or almost completely recovered from a minor cold? Mild back pain? Acne? There can of course be very strict local definitions of such matters, and we might have the view that the Buddha was very clear when formulating the rules. But if he didn't specify things which have then been passed down verbatim, how could we ever know what he intended? Illness is a social construct, and definitions change. How anxious does a monk have to be before it becomes a mental disorder that one could see as an illness? That seems to me to be a matter of personal or at best locally-agreed judgement.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

I would also suggest Amaravati and Chithurst as having the strictest vinaya in all of UK. There are a lot a lot of places which have much looser vinaya in the UK though. Let us know if you do find one more strict.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by santa100 »

KeepCalm wrote:I've heard otherwise. I've heard it is quite explicit. Leaves no room for manoeuvrer at all..

And rumour has it Lord Buddha could see future events, how things would unfold...
Well, we're living in the West and we're ~2,500 years away from the Buddha's time, so whether you like it or not, there're Tons of room for maneuver nowadays. That's just the reality. But just out curiosity, what's the reason you want to hang out with ascetics strictly following the Vinaya? I mean everyone kinda know the obvious reason, but realistically speaking, how would that help you making progress on the Path? Afterall, it's ultimately on you to observe the Vinaya, practice Samadhi, and cultivate Panna, if you want to make progress on the Path, not those ascetics that you befriend with, correct?
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Joe.c »

To answer the original title question. One needs to know the basic precepts first. Practice 5 precepts daily or precepts described on SN 55.7 and MN 61, Noble 8fold path on SN 45.8, and many others.

If one hasn't been good, it is impossible to know who is good and/or who is bad.

Just look at AN 4.187.
AN 4.187 wrote:“Master Gotama, could a not good person know of a not good person: ‘This fellow is a not good person’?”
“That’s impossible, brahmin, it can’t happen.”

“Could a not good person know of a good person: ‘This fellow is a good person’?”
“That too is impossible, it can’t happen.”

“Master Gotama, could a good person know of a good person: ‘This fellow is a good person’?”
“That, brahmin, is possible.”

“Could a good person know of a not good person: ‘This fellow is a not good person’?”
“That too is possible.”
KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:00 pm They allow eating beyond the time i.e. chocolate, cheese, and allow soya milk. I have questioned some Bhantes about this and they shrug it off like it is no big deal but to me it is a big deal.
Well it could be many things. They might not have understood the dhamma or they don't care about it. But restrain on eating is difficult without samadhi that slow down the body process.

One who has known, upon being notified will straight out say "Sorry" then don't do it anymore. If they continue to shrug off, then time to move on. No discipline, no understanding, no noble knowledge.

Just FYI, as long as one hasn't entered the stream, one doesn't have the discipline even to follow 5 precepts in daily life. Let alone a vinaya with 200+ rules in daily life. The mind won't be able to have the power to analyze every action/experience.

My suggestion is to keep practice 5 precepts and continue to check/hear true dhamma and investigate it. If one become good completely, the good association will follow later.

Also, Be careful when analyze minor precepts, because an ariya may break a minor precepts. But upon being notified, they will take up the practice and say "Sorry immediately". But if you never notified them, then that is a different story.

A good person will be very truthful to himself and others.

Just look at AN 3.86 for an Arahant (who has fulfilled sila, samadhi and panna) can break minor precepts (non ariyan precepts see SN 51.7 or N8FP). But will restore it ASAP and won't break it anymore.
AN 3.86 wrote: ... Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, samadhi, and wisdom.
They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored.

Why is that?
Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that.

But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken.

They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.
O btw, It is difficult to find an ariya especially non returner or even an arahant nowadays.

Good luck.
Last edited by Joe.c on Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by cappuccino »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:03 am They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored.

Why is that?
Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Microdose »

Is there such a thing as a perfect place where everyone practices perfectly by the book

Maybe everyone should be perfectly enlightened before practicing


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