Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

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mikenz66
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by mikenz66 »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:35 pm
Yes, understood. I have heard some monastics talk about the chocolate and cheese issue as being a primarily Western trick to circumvent the rule about eating after mid-day. But I have also heard some explain how it really doesn't breach vinaya. I guess it's just a matter of personal choice in the onlooker...
Hmmm.. I don't think so. I think something either breaks vinaya or it doesn't.
Here are some comments about some of these issues from Ven Dhammanando:
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:36 pm ...
Among bhikkhus the allowability of chocolate is a disputed point.
...
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:21 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:16 pm and ghee and cheese are not really allowable in my opinion, thats a thai tradition?
Ghee (sappi) is uncontroversial; it's one of the five tonics. Cheese is widely accepted in Thailand as being included in navanīta, another of the five tonics, though this is likely an error.
Ajahn Thanissaro on 'navanīta' wrote: Fresh butter must be made from the milk of any animal whose flesh is allowable. None of the Vinaya texts go into detail on how fresh butter is made, but MN 126 describes the process as "having sprinkled curds in a pot, one twirls them with a churn." Fresh butter of this sort is still made in India today by taking a small churn — looking like an orange with alternate sections removed, attached to a small stick — and twirling it in curds, all the while sprinkling them with water. The fresh butter — mostly milk fat — coagulates on the churn, and when the fresh butter is removed, what is left in the pot is diluted buttermilk. Fresh butter, unlike creamery butter made by churning cream, may be stored unrefrigerated in bottles for several days even in the heat of India without going rancid.

Arguing by the Great Standards, creamery butter would obviously come under fresh butter here. A more controversial topic is cheese.

In Mv.VI.34.21, the Buddha allows bhikkhus to consume five products of the cow: milk, curds, buttermilk, fresh butter, and ghee. Apparently, cheese — curds heated to evaporate their liquid content and then cured with or without mold — was unknown in those days, but there seems every reason, using the Great Standards, to include it under one of the five. The question is which one. Some have argued that it should come under fresh butter, but the argument for classifying it under curds seems stronger, as it is closer to curds in composition and is generally regarded as more of a substantial food. Different Communities, however, have differing opinions on this matter.
salayatananirodha wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:16 pmcan also have coffee and tea
In Thailand you can. In many Burmese monasteries tea is classified as a food because of the local practice of fermenting tea leaves and eating them.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:56 am
KeepCalm wrote:I've heard otherwise. I've heard it is quite explicit. Leaves no room for manoeuvrer at all..

And rumour has it Lord Buddha could see future events, how things would unfold...
Well, we're living in the West and we're ~2,500 years away from the Buddha's time, so whether you like it or not, there're Tons of room for maneuver nowadays. That's just the reality. But just out curiosity, what's the reason you want to hang out with ascetics strictly following the Vinaya? I mean everyone kinda know the obvious reason, but realistically speaking, how would that help you making progress on the Path? Afterall, it's ultimately on you to observe the Vinaya, practice Samadhi, and cultivate Panna, if you want to make progress on the Path, not those ascetics that you befriend with, correct?
:goodpost:
As a layperson, I still struggle to observe the five precepts.
I think if I become a monk and observe the five precepts, it will be a great achievement for me in person irrespective of the 227 rules.
Be mindful of your own path not of others.
However, I agree with the OP if you are looking for a reliable teacher.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Joe.c »

One more thing, strict vinaya doesn't mean they know the true dhamma.

Also, strict vinaya needs to be observed by hanging out with that person 24/7 for some period. You can't just observe the person for couple minutes/hours and conclude. Someone can just act/behave certain way during that period and you get misled.

Try to observe the 5 precepts, because those vinaya is based on 5 precepts anyway. Eventually the precepts become automatic and can be abandoned upon samadhi is being reached.

Without samadhi, it is impossible to have perfect restraint on food or restrain on 5 senses, because the desire for sensual pleasure is still there.

But arahant and non returner can easily eat 1 time meal/day or even skip the meal due to their samadhi/sati. Just need to stay in 2nd jhana to recharge with piti.

Good luck.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Goofaholix »

Eating a few pieces of cheese or chocolate in the afternoon is pretty trivial compared with some of the other vinaya rules.

I've always found it odd that milk is considered a food but cheese is not.

Intermittent fasting is one of the best things about monastic practice, but the key word here is "medicine", if you're feeling unwell, rundown, or have had a vigorous work period then this is what "medicine" is for, if not then just pass the tray on without partaking. Either way it doesn't really matter what is and isn't classed as "medicine" in this particular monastery.

If someone has a stash in their kuti that they are gorging on as a second meal then I agree that is a problem.
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mario92
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by mario92 »

I dont think you would find someone in England, but I know in Thailand in the forest tradition they are very strict like with Ajahn Martin. Maybe he is an option.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Since you live in Essex, The Mahamevnawa monastery in Billericay may be convenient.

Dhamma Land Hardings Elms Road
Crays Hill
Billericay
Basildon
CM11 2UH
Tel – 01268 533870

From what I have seen in a couple of visits, their observance of the Vinaya is good.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:05 am Since you live in Essex, The Mahamevnawa monastery in Billericay may be convenient.

Dhamma Land Hardings Elms Road
Crays Hill
Billericay
Basildon
CM11 2UH
Tel – 01268 533870

From what I have seen in a couple of visits, their observance of the Vinaya is good.
Are they kind, like you, Bhante?

(I'm not saying there not).

Its Peter Adams BTW.

:anjali:
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

KeepCalm wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:16 am Dear Meritorious Devotees,

Does anyone know if there are any Monks or Anagarika Nuns in the UK (England) that are kind and keeping good vinaya/precepts?

I live in Essex which is near London but I am willing to travel within reason...

I am also interested in making a connection with Monastics and Upāsaka (Devout lay followers) from other countries as well.

Mind how you go,

KeepCalm

(Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section.. please move if there is a better section to post it in).
If you are sincere about strict discipline and a conducive environment to practice I would highly recommend the Forest Hermitage in Warwick.

https://foresthermitage.org.uk/

It is led by Ajahn Khemadhammo, one of Ajahn Chah's two most senior Western Monastics (alongside Ajahn Sumedho).

o-AJAHN-570.jpg

There is a small community there and a lovely hermitage they have which is frequented by mainly local Thai and some western Buddhists. There are also resident anagarikas there.
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That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:25 am There is a small community there and a lovely hermitage they have which is frequented by mainly local Thai and some western Buddhists. There are also resident anagarikas there.
Thank you very much :anjali:
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:58 pm
Well, here's an example of what I mean. Lots of the rules have an exception in them: "except when ill". How is illness defined? Severe bronchitis would count. But what about 'flu? A minor cold? Or almost completely recovered from a minor cold? Mild back pain? Acne? There can of course be very strict local definitions of such matters, and we might have the view that the Buddha was very clear when formulating the rules. But if he didn't specify things which have then been passed down verbatim, how could we ever know what he intended? Illness is a social construct, and definitions change. How anxious does a monk have to be before it becomes a mental disorder that one could see as an illness? That seems to me to be a matter of personal or at best locally-agreed judgement.
If someone can't tell if they are ill or not then wouldn't earing on the side of caution and having some Chathu Madura which is allowable be a better idea? I have a hard time classifying chocolate as medicine personally. I think that is pushing it!

Mind how you go,

:anjali:

KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

KeepCalm wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:05 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:05 am Since you live in Essex, The Mahamevnawa monastery in Billericay may be convenient.

Dhamma Land Hardings Elms Road
Crays Hill
Billericay
Basildon
CM11 2UH
Tel – 01268 533870

From what I have seen in a couple of visits, their observance of the Vinaya is good.
Are they kind, like you, Bhante?

(I'm not saying there not).

Its Peter Adams BTW.

:anjali:
Or maybe they are kind but there vinayas not so good? Hmmm :shrug: Who knows?
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KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:58 pm
Well, here's an example of what I mean. Lots of the rules have an exception in them: "except when ill". How is illness defined? Severe bronchitis would count. But what about 'flu? A minor cold? Or almost completely recovered from a minor cold? Mild back pain? Acne? There can of course be very strict local definitions of such matters, and we might have the view that the Buddha was very clear when formulating the rules. But if he didn't specify things which have then been passed down verbatim, how could we ever know what he intended? Illness is a social construct, and definitions change. How anxious does a monk have to be before it becomes a mental disorder that one could see as an illness? That seems to me to be a matter of personal or at best locally-agreed judgement.
If someone can't tell if they are ill or not then wouldn't earing on the side of caution and having some Chathu Madura which is allowable be a better idea? I have a hard time classifying chocolate as medicine personally. I think that is pushing it!

Mind how you go,

:anjali:

KeepCalm
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:14 pm If someone can't tell if they are ill or not then wouldn't earing on the side of caution and having some Chathu Madura which is allowable be a better idea? I have a hard time classifying chocolate as medicine personally. I think that is pushing it!
And in those Thai and Burmese monasteries where Vinaya is taken seriously Chathu Madura would be considered "pushing it". :lol:

Once one gets into the "narcissism of small differences" game, there's really no end to it.

Outside of the Mahamevnawa group the prevailing opinion is that since Chathu Madura contains unsalted butter, and since the case for identifying salted butter with the allowable medicine called "navanita" is very weak, Chathu Madura should not be consumed after midday.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by KeepCalm »

Mumfie wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:40 am
KeepCalm wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:14 pm If someone can't tell if they are ill or not then wouldn't earing on the side of caution and having some Chathu Madura which is allowable be a better idea? I have a hard time classifying chocolate as medicine personally. I think that is pushing it!
And in those Thai and Burmese monasteries where Vinaya is taken seriously Chathu Madura would be considered "pushing it". :lol:

Once one gets into the "narcissism of small differences" game, there's really no end to it.

Outside of the Mahamevnawa group the prevailing opinion is that since Chathu Madura contains unsalted butter, and since the case for identifying salted butter with the allowable medicine called "navanita" is very weak, Chathu Madura should not be consumed after midday.
Incorrect I believe. I think you will find it is made with Ghee, not butter and is therefore not contentious at all.

Please don't make accusations about peoples intentions or state of mind unless you know what they are/it is.
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Re: Does anyone know if there are any kind Buddhist Monks or Nuns following good vinaya precepts in the UK (England)?

Post by Mumfie »

KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:53 am Incorrect I believe. I think you will find it is made with Ghee, not butter and is therefore not contentious at all.
The chathu (Pali, catu) in Chathu Madura means "four".

The four ingredients are ghee, unsalted butter, jaggary and honey. The instructions for making it can be seen Mahamevnawa YouTube channel.


KeepCalm wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:53 amPlease don't make accusations about peoples intentions or state of mind unless you know what they are/it is. Its not good for you actually.
One doesn't need to be a mind-reader or a Freudian psychologist to detect what Freud called the "narcissism of small differences". It's a phenomenon common to any group whose way of life is based upon a heavily legalistic code, like ultra-Orthodox Jews, Plymouth Brethren, Conservative Quakers and Theravada bhikkhus. In the last case it can readily be observed that those communities where the Vinaya is fairly strictly observed will often produce monks who are more given to criticizing the monks in similarly strict communities over small points of difference than they are to criticizing monasteries in which the monks are grossly lax about Vinaya. Hence "the narcissism of small differences." (I don't mean to imply, of course, that the monks in strict communities will all be like this, only that there'll usually be some).

“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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