Radix wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:39 pmAll of the very first monks, nuns and laypersons started off as non-Buddhists. If the Buddha wasn't in the business of converting others, there wouldn't be no Sangha today.
The Buddha didn't "convert" anyone, they chose to change their ways. Well, at least some of them.
It's not like if you listen to the Buddha, you're like a helpless damsel, enchanted, unable to resist. It's also not the case that the Buddha would hold a gun to your head (a metaphorical or a metal one) and threaten to pull the trigger if you don't do his bidding. Many other religions or spiritualities do one or the other.
We can talk about "conversion at gunpoint", etc., but by this we really mean a form of insincere kow-towing. In the type of conversion that we see in the suttas - and which I think Ceisiwr is alluding to - people choose to change their ways. In fact, the "con" bit of "convert" requires this. It means "with", and so the turning is done with the other person. A unilateral conversion is impossible. That would be to divert, or pervert.
If anything, I would describe the Buddha as rather aloof. When people asked him questions, he qualified this as "pestering". Like he was ready to give up on them at any moment. One speck of dust too much in your eyes, and you're done away with.
That's far too one-sided to be a credible summary. We also see him engaging in lengthy debates with questioners, and the following phrase is very common:
a certain cowherd then went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One, instructed, urged, roused, & encouraged him with Dhamma-talk.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
He also went out of his way to visit monks struggling with the practice, to encourage and correct them. Plus the frequent exhortations that people should clarify any points of the teaching that they were uncertain about.
With the constitutionally argumentative and time-wasters, he would certainly give up on them. But that's a sign of astuteness, rather than aloofness. You can't get dust out of people's eyes if they won't let you. The best way to get dust out of someone's eye is to leave them to cry it out for a while.