A serious non-Buddhist

[Radix]

As I've said before, I think your experience of "Buddhists" is too narrow for you to make such a generalisation with credibility.

You're not listening. I'm talking about definitions of certain terms, abstractly defined, not derived from empirical observations.

You have told me that you don't practice; requests that you name those nasty Buddhists who "done you wrong" are not answered; and offers to get you to meet Buddhists online are rejected. It seems everything you "know" about Buddhists is based on your experiences here and on other forums,

and you try to extrapolate from that to come up with a view of what Buddhists are like.

No, you're doing that, and you impose it on me. You're describing _your_ method, not mine. I'm trying to figure what the ideal Buddhist would be. And if this eventually means that 90% or merely 0.0001% of people who identify themselves as "Buddhists" fit the definition, that's fine by me.

Just like the definition of "nibbana" isn't derived from what many people say it is, but is defined regardless of what many people say about it.

But to deal with the substantive point, I would think that some forms of aloofness - viveka - are extremely desirable; but anything like "cold-heartedness" or an unwillingness to deal with people, is not. The whole of the Buddha's sāsana was based upon him having compassion for the world. Had aloofness been the main aspect, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

The question is about the extent and the manner of this compassion and aloofness, and the motivation for them.
Since he wasn't an ordinary person, his compassion and aloofness cannot be compared to that of ordinary people, nor measured the way theirs is.

[Radix]

And you know the way of the Buddha??? There're times when only bitter medicine would be able to cure severe illness.

"Worthless man, from whom have you understood that Dhamma taught by me in such a way? Worthless man, haven't I in many ways described obstructive acts?

Arittha, who was addressed with that "worthless man", was the first monk to be banished from the Sangha. Calling him names clearly didn't cure him (and I doubt it was intended to do so).

Go ahead, collect all the references when the Buddha called someone a "worthless man" or "fool" and such, and we'll see in how many instances that person then took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

[santa100]

Arittha, who was addressed with that "worthless man", was the first monk to be banished from the Sangha. Calling him names clearly didn't cure him (and I doubt it was intended to do so).

Go ahead, collect all the references when the Buddha called someone a "worthless man" or "fool" and such, and we'll see in how many instances that person then took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

Oh I wouldn't jump to conclusion like you do. I wouldn't be surprised if Arittha and many other "bad" disciples had already been in a much much better place than both you and me nowadays, thanks to such stern reprimands from the Buddha ~2,500 years ago.

[Sam Vara]

As I've said before, I think your experience of "Buddhists" is too narrow for you to make such a generalisation with credibility.

You're not listening. I'm talking about definitions of certain terms, abstractly defined, not derived from empirical observations.

But this thread, like others, is peppered with references to observations you have made:

of other posters:

And the first reply is: That person. And further down the thread more replies in the same spirit. Evidently, some people think that conversion very much is a unilateral affair, and the responsibility solely of the prospective convert.

of Buddhists in general:

I suspect Buddhists are really proud of themselves when they are aloof toward people.

of Hindus:

I've spent enough time with Hindus to know better, to see the pattern.

of me:

You've studied the spiritual right-wingers' textbook well.

of psychological predispositions:

Perhaps not, but the power of piety should never be underestimated.

of scholars:

I suspect that to some of those scholars, Buddhism is just a study area, something they leave behind when they close the door to their office at the department of religious studies at their university.

of Western Buddhists:

I think there is a tendency, esp. among Western Buddhists, to present the Buddha as some kind of "all-round nice guy", perhaps even as the type of person like a college professor who goes out for drinks with his students to a pub after classes. It's perhaps a well-meant positive image, but a misleading one. Of course, these same people overcorrect that image with harsh judgmentalism after someone has taken that rosy image to exents they're not willing to indulge. "We've only offered you a finger, not a hand!"

of some people:

Brutally frank or just frankly brutal? Many people love to indulge in the latter under the guise of the former.

So that looks like a lot of speculation based on personal observation, but to avoid accusations of unfairness I invite you to balance it with the "definitions of certain terms, abstractly defined". Where are they?

No, you're doing that, and you impose it on me. You're describing _your_ method, not mine.

I'm happy to admit to that, but stand by its truth. Little here but opinions based on reading rather than practice. Citations provided if required.

[cappuccino]

Go ahead, collect all the references when the Buddha called someone a "worthless man" or "fool" and such, and we'll see in how many instances that person then took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

[Sam Vara]

Arittha, who was addressed with that "worthless man", was the first monk to be banished from the Sangha. Calling him names clearly didn't cure him (and I doubt it was intended to do so).

Go ahead, collect all the references when the Buddha called someone a "worthless man" or "fool" and such, and we'll see in how many instances that person then took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha.

Oh I wouldn't jump to conclusion like you do. I wouldn't be surprised if Arittha and many other "bad" disciples had already been in a much much better place than both you and me nowadays, thanks to such stern reprimands from the Buddha ~2,500 years ago.

It might be that he returned to the Sangha and made progress. There is this:

ariṭṭha1
A monk. He had been subjected by the Saṅgha to the ukkhepanīyakamma for refusal to renounce a sinful doctrine, namely, that the states of mind declared by the Buddha to be stumbling-blocks are not such at all for him who indulges in them.

Ariṭṭha left the Order and would not come back until the ukkhepanīyakamma was revoked. Vin.ii.25–28

He was a vulture-trainer (gaddhabādhiputta).

His case is cited as that of a pācittiya offence because he refused to give up a wrong doctrine even after the monks had three times requested him to do so. Vin.iv.135

In spite of the ukkhepanīyakamma the Chabbaggiyā (group of six) monks kept company with Ariṭṭha, thereby committing a pācittiya-offence. Vin.iv.137 We find the Buddha rebuking the nun Thullanandā for associating with Ariṭṭha after the ukkhepanīyakamma. Vin.iv.218

It was Ariṭṭha’s heresy that led to the preaching of the Alagaddūpama Sutta. MN.i.130ff.

In the Saṁyutta Nikāya, SN.v.314–315 Ariṭṭha is mentioned as having said to the Buddha that he practised concentration in breathing and as having described how he did it. The Buddha, thereupon, instructs him as to how such concentration can be done perfectly and in every detail.

https://suttacentral.net/define/ari%E1% ... 1%B9%ADha

We don't know which situation came first (and I don't know enough to try to date them!) but it's possible the penny dropped and he made progress later. I know monks and ex-monks who were given a very hard time by Ajahn Chah, and only realised years later - in one case long after disrobing - what he meant. There were tears of gratitude.

[santa100]

We don't know which situation came first (and I don't know enough to try to date them!) but it's possible the penny dropped and he made progress later. I know monks and ex-monks who were given a very hard time by Ajahn Chah, and only realised years later - in one case long after disrobing - what he meant. There were tears of gratitude.

That and the simple fact that even the bad disciples back then were born during the Buddha's time, received the instructions, and underwent the training directly under the Buddha is enough to conclude their Kamma must've been gazillionth times more auspicious than us modern day wretched worldlings.

[thepea]

We don't know which situation came first (and I don't know enough to try to date them!) but it's possible the penny dropped and he made progress later. I know monks and ex-monks who were given a very hard time by Ajahn Chah, and only realised years later - in one case long after disrobing - what he meant. There were tears of gratitude.

That and the simple fact that even the bad disciples back then were born during the Buddha's time, received the instructions, and underwent the training directly under the Buddha is enough to conclude their Kamma must've been gazillionth times more auspicious than us modern day wretched worldlings.

We are all born during buddhas time. The triple gem or holy trinity is not anymore then, than it is now.

[santa100]

We don't know which situation came first (and I don't know enough to try to date them!) but it's possible the penny dropped and he made progress later. I know monks and ex-monks who were given a very hard time by Ajahn Chah, and only realised years later - in one case long after disrobing - what he meant. There were tears of gratitude.

That and the simple fact that even the bad disciples back then were born during the Buddha's time, received the instructions, and underwent the training directly under the Buddha is enough to conclude their Kamma must've been gazillionth times more auspicious than us modern day wretched worldlings.

We are all born during buddhas time. The triple gem or holy trinity is not anymore then, than it is now.

If you're to take a martial art lesson and if Bruce Lee was still alive, would you choose him as your instructor, or his student?

[justindesilva]

We don't know which situation came first (and I don't know enough to try to date them!) but it's possible the penny dropped and he made progress later. I know monks and ex-monks who were given a very hard time by Ajahn Chah, and only realised years later - in one case long after disrobing - what he meant. There were tears of gratitude.

That and the simple fact that even the bad disciples back then were born during the Buddha's time, received the instructions, and underwent the training directly under the Buddha is enough to conclude their Kamma must've been gazillionth times more auspicious than us modern day wretched worldlings.

We are all born during buddhas time. The triple gem or holy trinity is not anymore then, than it is now.

Today I listened to a utube prigramme (sinhala) on the subject that budda darma is not the same as during the time of living budda. At the first sangayana Ananda thero divulged the damma as all that in his memory. When it came to the second and third sangayana the tripitaka was distorted to certain extents. Later in writings such as Buddagosa (a hindu ) :who interpreted budda darma brought in certain ideologies subject to arguments. Eg: Panca niyama darma nof found in tripitaka. Even the teachings of Nagaejuna later had further interpretations orher than theravda with tripitaka.
It is upto us to form an insight to understand what lord Budda explained.
May I just say how I do it is by grabbing the elementary basics of budda darma and comparing it with earliest desana . Anatta lakkhana sutta, dammacakkapavattana sutta , phena sutta , abhinandana sutta and ogatarana sutta have mostly helped me to understand the elementary basics of darma .
With metta.

[thepea]

That and the simple fact that even the bad disciples back then were born during the Buddha's time, received the instructions, and underwent the training directly under the Buddha is enough to conclude their Kamma must've been gazillionth times more auspicious than us modern day wretched worldlings.

We are all born during buddhas time. The triple gem or holy trinity is not anymore then, than it is now.

If you're to take a martial art lesson and if Bruce Lee was still alive, would you choose him as your instructor, or his student?

I have Buddha as my inner guide. The buddha(the father). This is the same Buddha as the folks 2500 yrs ago.
Your Bruce Lee reference is not relevant.

[santa100]

I have Buddha as my inner guide. The buddha(the father). This is the same Buddha as the folks 2500 yrs ago.
Your Bruce Lee reference is not relevant.

Oh, sorry I forgot that you're a self-proclaimed Stream-Enterer. Must be something you know that the rest of us unenlightened worldlings dont eh!

[thepea]

I have Buddha as my inner guide. The buddha(the father). This is the same Buddha as the folks 2500 yrs ago.
Your Bruce Lee reference is not relevant.

Oh, sorry I forgot that you're a self-proclaimed Stream-Enterer. Must be something you know that the rest of us unenlightened worldlings dont eh!

It seems so.

[santa100]

I have Buddha as my inner guide. The buddha(the father). This is the same Buddha as the folks 2500 yrs ago.
Your Bruce Lee reference is not relevant.

Oh, sorry I forgot that you're a self-proclaimed Stream-Enterer. Must be something you know that the rest of us unenlightened worldlings dont eh!

It seems so.

Well, bad news for you, I've just attained Once-Returning 5 minutes ago. And using my newly acquired supernatural ability, I can see that you've been doing it all wrong. You should go back and restart your training from square one all over again, if you want any hope of attaining Stream-Entry.

[thepea]

Oh, sorry I forgot that you're a self-proclaimed Stream-Enterer. Must be something you know that the rest of us unenlightened worldlings dont eh!

It seems so.

Well, bad news for you, I've just attained Once-Returning 5 minutes ago. And using my newly acquired supernatural ability, I can see that you've been doing it all wrong. You should go back and restart your training from square one all over again, if you want any hope of attaining Stream-Entry.

Is that so.